Lrp 2013

[1stgen]

Why would Mohud split the weekend? At best we break even and the potential to lose money far out weighs the maybe tiny profit .
We all work closely but LRP is the only race Mohud does as a region. They lost big last year.

If you split the cost...you will split the loss....that's the point.

[dtanthon]

MoHud and NNJR will be co-hosting a weekend at Lime Rock in 2013 just as we did last year. From speaking with the MoHud race committee chairman it appears a National does not fit into the available dates so it will most likely be a 2 day regional (format TBD).

This weekend is the scheduling meeting in Ithaca. We will have firm as firm can be dates on Monday.

[StephF]

It sounds a lot like you guys want to cater to yourselves, you all say the instructors, the equipment and the people have to travel to put the school on. As far as learning the flags, passing etc I still say lime rock is better. The flags are easy to spot, flag stations are easy to see, there are no solid tirewalls in the most dangerous brake zones...etc.
again...from a students point of view lime rock is a nice, smooth track. NHMS is o e of the worst tracks in the US. Most NER and new scca hopefuls I'm sure would rather do their school at a place that isn't rough on the car. You have no time to fix anything if it breaks...so who fucking cares about garage space? If you break at NHMS you will most likely have a harder time getting back on track that same day. Lime rocks not much better but it's certainly not that tough on your car.
PS most people from the northeast who plan to run the NARRC series are most likely NOT going to go to summit point. Who wants to tow 9 hours to do their first race school? That's just stupid

Then call me stupid, because that's what I did back in '98. Absolutely an AWESOME school. Tons of track time, huge turnout, crazy good. Learned a bunch those two days.
Because towing is part of racing too.

[BruceG]

MoHud and NNJR will be co-hosting a weekend at Lime Rock in 2013 just as we did last year. From speaking with the MoHud race committee chairman it appears a National does not fit into the available dates so it will most likely be a 2 day regional (format TBD).

This weekend is the scheduling meeting in Ithaca. We will have firm as firm can be dates on Monday.

That would be great!! To have more regionals at LRP. Nice!!

PS: no sarcasm in my message. Nice for those of us that only run regionals.

[joeg]

I'm with Stephanie...fantastic school at Summit...and my tow was longer than 9 hours!

[1stgen]

Then call me stupid, because that's what I did back in '98. Absolutely an AWESOME school. Tons of track time, huge turnout, crazy good. Learned a bunch those two days.
Because towing is part of racing too.

And how much was gas in 98? It's time to get up to date with WHO your clientele is and how far they'll tow to do a race school. 400-700 miles from their home in this economy is Again just not smart economically. You want young new drivers....they're going to NASA because they offer a school at every event they have pretty much. So get acclimated to your customers so you don't scare them all away. Had I not already been an SCCA member for 13 yeas prior to getting licensed....guess who I would have gone with?

[ner88]

1stgen
You seem to have all the answers!
But, you're nothing more than a heckler!
Show a little respect for your fellow members and don't assume you know everything because you don't.
If you think you know how to make things"better" than shut up and get involved.
Earn our respect and make a difference!

[Drew M]

He does have a point, Jerry. Would mixing one school session in on a few race weekends really be that costly?

[ner88]

I can only say it would be a huge problem!
What is a few, we only do 5 events so 1 is 20%.....
10 years ago our schools saw 65 new drivers today 10? Maybe?
Back then we were the only game in town, guys would tow for miles to come.
Today, there are so many opportunities to get a license and more schools.
Take time and read (SCCA.com) alternative schools, we make it easy and won't turn anyone down.
COM, SCDA and BMW club will put an instructor in your car and teach you how to drive.
Today it's rare to have a student that has no track experience. Our primary objective is to make sure they are safe to race with.
NASA does a lot of things but mainly provides entertainment! (I know first hand)
We do what we do best, race!

[1stgen]

You know what....this is a public forum. You asked for opinions on the race school, guess what? You got some and the majority of people say is it really that difficult to have that damn race school? I've said a million times I will gladly help out but again you guys have the attitude that you know what's right and were not going to hear what your saying. I'm telling you what's happening out there. I've instructed for those afformentioned clubs for years and have been volunteering my time and money for over a decade with them. I never raced because it IS difficult to get the car ready, prepped for a full day with no repairs, all your supplies, spares etc....by yourself? Get real, you all had help along the way and you need to go back to being a noob and realize it isn't easy to do all that and get your shit in order and travel to the event. ALL of you I'm sure had help your first school and or race weekend. ALOT of people don't have that luxury....how about this....stop posting on a public forum if you don't want opinions expressed that arent your own.

[webhound]

Hear hear, Tom.

Saying it can't be done is all well and good, but when there are alternatives that exist, staying relevant in the face of those alternatives become much less likely unless change is instituted.

And the post above that said this is a business. It's actually not. It's a club. I'm well aware of the differences.

Will

[BruceG]

Hear hear, Tom.

Saying it can't be done is all well and good, but when there are alternatives that exist, staying relevant in the face of those alternatives become much less likely unless change is instituted.

And the post above that said this is a business. It's actually not. It's a club. I'm well aware of the differences.

Will

I quess what I plain don't like about this thread is that we were asked for our opinion.....and basically told that unless our answer meet a certain criteria that we were way off base!!

I live in southern Vermont and NHMS And LRP are about an equal tow. I think that NHMS is certainly tougher on hardware than LRP and the fact remains that CT,RI, and NY have greater populations to draw on than ME,NH and certainly VT.

That being said, I certainly appreciate the job that Jerry has done for us......and his knowledge of the business model is far greater than most of us has.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think that given the timing of the NHMS school - and that there are 2 other options so close, it has really hurt the effectiveness of that date. I am willing to bet that a few months later, with the more central location, that LRP would draw more students.

The big problem is the cost and the associated financial risk. While it is a Club, Regions CAN go 'out of business' if they take such a huge hit that they can't recover. What most people don't know is that at the end of the day NER controls the racing at both NHMS and LRP because those tracks reside within their geographical boundaries.

Now from an administration and worker standpoint it makes sense to 'share the wealth' with the hosting of races by different Regions...but NER takes the financial risks (and hits) for all the schools in this area. Do you think NYR would voluntarily swap the summer school/regional at LRP for the NARRC Runoff weekend? Umm, I doubt it. (Even though NER could take the NARRC date if it wanted to)

So in the end we realize this decision is largely about money and who can absorb the smallest short term loss for the best potential long term gain. It really is a decision that has way more angles than most people give it credit for. As a former National Committee member for Solo Stock Class, Spec Miata and Improved Touring as well as an NER BoD member I can say with confidence that it's easy to get heated on both sides of this coin.

Maybe Jerry can list the reasons NER feels like it needs to have (or not have) a school at a certain venue, what the plans are and see if any of us had an other thoughts.

Looking back at the original post, the question was what format the drivers wanted at the LRP date, NOT what track they wanted a school at.

[BruceG]

I think that given the timing of the NHMS school - and that there are 2 other options so close, it has really hurt the effectiveness of that date. I am willing to bet that a few months later, with the more central location, that LRP would draw more students.

The big problem is the cost and the associated financial risk. While it is a Club, Regions CAN go 'out of business' if they take such a huge hit that they can't recover. What most people don't know is that at the end of the day NER controls the racing at both NHMS and LRP because those tracks reside within their geographical boundaries.

Now from an administration and worker standpoint it makes sense to 'share the wealth' with the hosting of races by different Regions...but NER takes the financial risks (and hits) for all the schools in this area. Do you think NYR would voluntarily swap the summer school/regional at LRP for the NARRC Runoff weekend? Umm, I doubt it. (Even though NER could take the NARRC date if it wanted to)








So in the end we realize this decision is largely about money and who can absorb the smallest short term loss for the best potential long term gain. It really is a decision that has way more angles than most people give it credit for. As a former National Committee member for Solo Stock Class, Spec Miata and Improved Touring as well as an NER BoD member I can say with confidence that it's easy to get heated on both sides of this coin.

Maybe Jerry can list the reasons NER feels like it needs to have (or not have) a school at a certain venue, what the plans are and see if any of us had an other thoughts.

Looking back at the original post, the question was what format the drivers wanted at the LRP date, NOT what track they wanted a school at.

Andy......your last line here is right on the money.I have already got my "crow" out of the fridge to eat. I should read more carefully in the future.

[JLawton]

I "may" be out of the loop a little and not paying attention...... (it's been known to happen ) But it seems when the NHMS school was in April, and the first school on the North East, it was well attended. Can we take part of the Rational weekend?

I know the bottom line question was about the LRP date, but if you can get one good school in at another time, it's a moot point.

I also have to say that as racers, we've been asked for our opinion and changes made based on those ideas more in the last three or so years than I've seen in all my previous years with SCCA. Jerry listens to the racers and does all he can to accommodate us. He's busted his ass for a lot of years and knows his shit. Maybe we should try listening (and hearing) to what he has to say.............. as difficult as it is at times.

Can't we all get along?? It's gonna be a looooong off season!!

[Serge]

And how much was gas in 98? It's time to get up to date with WHO your clientele is and how far they'll tow to do a race school. 400-700 miles from their home in this economy is Again just not smart economically. You want young new drivers....they're going to NASA because they offer a school at every event they have pretty much. So get acclimated to your customers so you don't scare them all away. Had I not already been an SCCA member for 13 yeas prior to getting licensed....guess who I would have gone with?

The New England Region Racing Board has always listen to their competitors in regards to what they would prefer during a race weekend and the constant answer has always been "more track time". with that in mind, do you think that our racing members would be willing to sacrifice a halfday of racing in order to include a school for a very minimal number of students? Not likely.
Jerry is doing everything he can to satisfy the majority of members. Unfortunately, you appear to be in the minority, suck it up and move on. I was always told that life sometime isn't fair.
I congratulate Jerry for the great job he's doing with little money, big objectives and never enough support. If anyone feels that they can do a better job, the position can be yours. I'm certain that Jerry would welcome a quick transition. But if you're not up to the full task, the NER Racing Board would appreciate any positive help you'd be willing to contribute.

[1stgen]

I can only say it would be a huge problem!
What is a few, we only do 5 events so 1 is 20%.....
10 years ago our schools saw 65 new drivers today 10? Maybe?
Back then we were the only game in town, guys would tow for miles to come.
Today, there are so many opportunities to get a license and more schools.
Take time and read (SCCA.com) alternative schools, we make it easy and won't turn anyone down.
COM, SCDA and BMW club will put an instructor in your car and teach you how to drive.
Today it's rare to have a student that has no track experience. Our primary objective is to make sure they are safe to race with.
NASA does a lot of things but mainly provides entertainment! (I know first hand)
We do what we do best, race!

I will happily sacrifice track time at ANY event to get new students and racers. It's about the big picture....which some of you clearly can not focus on. Which is your driver numbers are getting smaller and your drivers are getting younger. Cater to them or you will be a member of a very small and elite club. This is all Ive been saying all along, seriously if you can't get it done in a practice and qualifier, then maybe YOU need to go back to drivers schools to get more seat time. Race weekend I want to show up, qualify and race. Car set up is done, it's all driver at this point.

[webhound]

Kudos to NER for carrying the schools and making them relatively affordable. It's too bad that it appears it's done at a loss. Also, I'm really glad that the issues are being looked into, and that really realistic alternatives are being proposed, accomplished, and more are coming.

The lion's share of the "problem" isn't necessarily what the SCCA is or isn't doing or is or isn't able to do, it's what other organizations are doing that looks pretty darn attractive, especially given today's economic environment. The other orgs I'm citing here are NASA, track day businesses, Lemons, Chump, etc. I'm not here to argue the relative merits of each vis SCCA, but they are definite alternatives.

Onto ideas. What about nixing schools during race weekends altogether? Instead, have the school integrated into weekday PDX events, weekday in particular because track rental is cheaper. Or do those on a three day schedule in which the PDX/school combo leads into a race weekend. The good part about that is that you'd have "real racers" being mingled in with PDX/school participants and maybe cross pollinate the bunch. Heck, licensing school guys could probably work in with PDX novices for first session, then progress from there to get their own passing sessions later in the day. Call this an alternative school, but instead of running a couple of guys through it, make it widely known that it's a licensing path.

As things are now, I think the alternative licensing tracts are going to become the method the majority are going to use to get licensed (looks like me included), and to a great degree that's great and progressive thinking. However, the avenues being used through the alternative tracts are not really (usually) SCCA events, and that's frankly too bad. AFAIK we are bootstrapping track test days and sometimes other org's HPDE sessions for this purpose.

Guys, bottom line, the days of a guy having the sun rise AND set over their racing "career," and it being entirely under the SCCA banner, are LONG GONE. To stay relevant, the SCCA needs to branch out a little.

And yes, we have strayed off the topic a lot.

Will

[StephenB]

I will be honest in saying that I like the track time. I don't do test days, I have a new car and even with my old one I like to tinker on it. (this is a hobby of mine) So the extra sessions and extra track time attracks me to the event.

With that being said I do think it would be cool to encorporate a HPDE session into each weekend that would allow for track time for our members that are not licensed racers. Just not sure how we could do that. I certainly don't think we could at LRP since track time is so limited. At NHMS maybe we could since an extra 1hr Saturday night is like a grand or so... just have a seperate entry for that evenings event. I am sure some racers would volunteer each weekend for that. Then hold a drivers school at the first weekend of the year as something that all the HPDE participates could work towards going to. this would become a cycle that repeats year after year without a loss of track time to us (current drivers) and would allow others to easily get the "hook" and seek out more. To be honest I would even be willing to pay an extra $10 for that "overtime session" in my entry to allow any corner workers to attend this HPDE session for FREE if they work that weekend. That may attract more workers and more participation as well.

Stephen

[webhound]

Stephen, point taken on track time. But, there is a growing faction of guys, Tom being one of them, that can pretty much get all the track time they can handle on HPDE days with other orgs. The instructor sessions are liberal enough wrt passing that you can even do a lot of t&t on the car during an average HPDE day. Tom's point is a good one, and mixed with what Jerry said, he's using SCCA racing weekends as just that, a racing weekend. If you want to get in the car more, there are so many other outlets out there, some even being free (instruct in exchange for track time) or with the SCCA, during enduros and such.

Every March BMWCCA has been holding a Club Racing school at Mid Ohio. You won't believe this, but they allow the school to be run in the student's regular HPDE car. You talk about setting the hook!

Will