Pro IT Race - WGI - July 24-25, 2010

[tdw6974]

[QUOTE=benspeed;309392]OK - here's the race up until I dive bomb the gravel trap. Didn't even TRY to get out. It ended up looking like a used car lot - 4 folks stuck and at least another 3-4 who visited the beach but were able to leave.

Ben, The radio net was an interesting call on the incident/incidents!!! Hope any damage was not too bad for those involved.

[mossaidis]

Another VERY mixed weekend for me and a whole lot of others. I hope everyone else get to visit the wineries as we did on Sun/Mon. This is not shaping to be a good year for me.

1) Canceled LRP due to bad tranny reassemble... can't shift into 5th/rev and then we get trailer tire flat on the way to LRP midnight before the race.
2) Made it to sun NHMS, started last in qual race. in the race, we went from 13th to 4th to DFL after a spark wire dislodged.
3a) Sat Morning at WGI, qualified 6th after Lawton though car was squirmy during the last 2 laps. Well, early afternoon we discovered that the end of the axle(incl nut) had simply sheared completely off - nothing like riding on unpacked bearings. hmmm.... went to NAPA and changed parts in under 70 min.
3b) Sat afternoon at WGI, I am tailing (within inches) lawton, wheelen, frederick until the middle of lap 3 when the pack pulls away (so I think). What's really happening is motor is starting to fall apart though I don't realize it. I dialed back knowing I won't be able to catch up... I shift into 3rd going into the laces and... BANG!!!! white smoke files cockpit and the rest is history.

Fine rieslings at Chateau Lafayette Renau though... simply delicious. Burp...

We stayed for the Sunday races, it was awesome viewing. Nick is in flight around the bus stop and Rob did his best to hunt him down - great race! ITA saw it's fair share of action too between Klava, Wheeler changing places and Braumscoum in hot pursuit! Sorry to hear lawton lose his brakes..

[JLawton]

Some crappy video from the qualifying race.........

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/7961569/21087045

The ITA leaders had a tough time all weekend with the ITS cars. I was lucky and it worked to my advantage most of the time. But a Saturn should really, REALLY not be passing a Porsche in the esses........... (race #2)

Disappointing race #2 as others mentioned. Got a great start, was in second when the brakes went. I mean NOTHING! Tried to to tough it out for a lap but for once I did the smart thing and pulled it in.

[Khammitte]

More video from the Pro-IT race. This is from Ann's car (red e30 M3)
http://vimeo.com/13673538

Keith Hammitte

[wepsbee]

Another VERY mixed weekend for me and a whole lot of others. I hope everyone else get to visit the wineries as we did on Sun/Mon. This is not shaping to be a good year for me.

1) Canceled LRP due to bad tranny reassemble... can't shift into 5th/rev and then we get trailer tire flat on the way to LRP midnight before the race.
2) Made it to sun NHMS, started last in qual race. in the race, we went from 13th to 4th to DFL after a spark wire dislodged.
3a) Sat Morning at WGI, qualified 6th after Lawton though car was squirmy during the last 2 laps. Well, early afternoon we discovered that the end of the axle(incl nut) had simply sheared completely off - nothing like riding on unpacked bearings. hmmm.... went to NAPA and changed parts in under 70 min.
3b) Sat afternoon at WGI, I am tailing (within inches) lawton, wheelen, frederick until the middle of lap 3 when the pack pulls away (so I think). What's really happening is motor is starting to fall apart though I don't realize it. I dialed back knowing I won't be able to catch up... I shift into 3rd going into the laces and... BANG!!!! white smoke files cockpit and the rest is history.

Fine rieslings at Chateau Lafayette Renau though... simply delicious. Burp...

We stayed for the Sunday races, it was awesome viewing. Nick is in flight around the bus stop and Rob did his best to hunt him down - great race! ITA saw it's fair share of action too between Klava, Wheeler changing places and Braumscoum in hot pursuit! Sorry to hear lawton lose his brakes..

Some crappy video from the qualifying race.........

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/7961569/21087045

The ITA leaders had a tough time all weekend with the ITS cars. I was lucky and it worked to my advantage most of the time. But a Saturn should really, REALLY not be passing a Porsche in the esses........... (race #2)

Disappointing race #2 as others mentioned. Got a great start, was in second when the brakes went. I mean NOTHING! Tried to to tough it out for a lap but for once I did the smart thing and pulled it in.

Really sorry to hear about your misfortunes. Sounds like our cars over the last few races. Hope to see you at NHMS in Aug.

[benspeed]

Link to the race results for the weekend. I didn't stick around so I was surprised - what happened to Nick? I'll take second fastest time - 2:14.5 - but Nick still had a second on me at 2:13.5

Congrats to AutoTechnic - you guys just keep putting it on the podium. Big kudos to RidgeRacing and Matt Rooke - 10th to 3rd - way to go.

The ITS guys put shame on the ITR guys

http://www.nescca.com/nescca_main/crrresultswgi1.pdf

[FastM3]

Anybody have video of me in the Silver # 38 Miata showing how it gets done in the rain.

Full story later




Phil Kogan #38 Silver Miata

[lawtonglenn]

More video from the Pro-IT race. This is from Ann's car (red e30 M3)
http://vimeo.com/13673538

Keith Hammitte

sorry keith but this video is from the Sunday Group 5 race where I'm on intermediates (stupid stupid stupid)

[lateapex911]

Why do you say this? The E36 weighs 215lbs less, has more tire and more HP. I can't fathom the reasoning.

As to the rest, ITR is a huge guess for us all. That is one of the great things about this class IMHO. You want a real treat? Lets have Kip VS come up here in his 944S2. Just because we haven't seen it yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Nothing I have seen has shown me that the top dog on paper is anything but the E36. The rest of us are using that as a bogey.

NO offense to anyone running in ITR, but....let's have Kip VS call Blake or Sunbelt and get himself a motor, and put his effort into an E36 in ITR, and bring it up. What say you ITR guys? Doe the thought of that make you nervous?

Hondaman, (Ben? Ben who?) I'm with Andy on this.

I've considered ITR hard. I keep coming back to the E36 - a car that I KNOW can make 220 WHP, handles pretty well, and weighs 2765. Nearly 300 less than the S2000. On the same tires/wheels. (or nearly the same).

Now the S2000, I've researched too, and I'm thinking that it's going to make 230 or so at the wheels. For it to equal the E36, it needs 240. (strictly speaking lbs/whp).

If Costello is going 2:14.1 in a T3 car, (within 20lbs of the ITR car)well, then we know the ITR record hasn't really 'gotten there' yet.

I bought a Porsche 944S to build into an ITR car, when I found one for a steal. When I really looked into it, research showed it could make nearly process power. But the cost. ugggg. While any car costs a lot to build into a front running racer, it's scary to do when the numbers suggest you'll be behind the 8 ball compared to other choices. If the Porsche had been a cheap build, it would have been worth the gamble if the $$ was reasonable. Kip told me what he's gone through, and the $. I'm glad it's him, not me. He's done well with the car, but, I still wonder where he'd be if he had chosen another route.

The RX8 is another consideration. 212whp, but, 2850lbs. And transmissions that go down like french whores. So, 8 hp less than an E36, and 100 lbs more. Pass.

And after all that, if lb/hp are equal, development is equal, drivers are equal, the lighter car handles better, is kinder to components and tires, and is often the winner. So, I've yet to have anyone convince me the E36 isn't the best choice.

(Andy likes the E46, too, but I haven't seen the real poop numbers on that so I can't say)

We haven't seen a top ITR car yet, sorry to say guys,

[Greg Amy]

...let's have Kip VS call Blake or Sunbelt and get himself a motor, and put his effort into an E36 in ITR, and bring it up....

We haven't seen a top ITR car yet, sorry to say guys,

Yes we have...but prior to '05 or so we called them "ITS".

GA

[Doc Bro]

We haven't seen a top ITR car yet, sorry to say guys,

Don't know if I fully agree Jake. I think Dan Jones's car is pretty close....Stickley power etc. And I think Nimkoff's car is pretty close...Motec etc. Are they Kip's, no...but I'd be careful about holding a single 944 data point as the gold standard. In either case Rob and Dan haven't left much on the table.

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yes we have...but prior to '05 or so we called them "ITS".

GA

When they didn't have to build to 10/10ths to win...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Don't know if I fully agree Jake. I think Dan Jones's car is pretty close....Stickley power etc. And I think Nimkoff's car is pretty close...Motec etc. Are they Kip's, no...but I'd be careful about holding a single 944 data point as the gold standard. In either case Rob and Dan haven't left much on the table.

R

So we take Dan out of it because he admits to a soft motor even when he set the record. Nimkoff's car is wicked for sure - and it shows at his home track where he runs in hallowed ground...:59's. Data is everywhere you want to find it!

Again, the bottom line here is that ITR is full of cars that can win - and do around here. E36's, 968's, 944S2's, S2000's...not to mention stuff nobody talks about. I bet a full-tilt E30 M3 would rock Lime Rock at 2650lbs!

I don't see any real overdogs in ITR, and that is what the real debate is about here. I would love to see Sunbelt build a 3.0 Supra motor however....

[Greg Amy]

You kiddin' me, dood? You were there back then, weren't you? That's where Bimmerworld (Clay, Thomas), ISC (Kip and Mike vS), and even AutoTechnic made a name for themselves! You really think those cars weren't top-notch builds...?

Now, you can legitimately argue that they were 100 pounds heavier and had smaller tires than they do now in ITR, but to argue they weren't top builds means you were either still autocrossing or simply not paying attention...

[Andy Bettencourt]

You kiddin' me, dood? You were there back then, weren't you? That's where Bimmerworld (Clay, Thomas), ISC (Kip and Mike vS), and even AutoTechnic made a name for themselves! You really think those cars weren't top-notch builds...?

Now, you can legitimately argue that they were 100 pounds heavier and had smaller tires than they do now in ITR, but to argue they weren't top builds means you were either still autocrossing or simply not paying attention...

The contect of the conversation was LOCAL. Ain't nothin' touched those Southern cars at the time. Hence the change in prep level and re-class. As with everything, shocks, tires, development...things go faster. To think those guys couldn't be faster now with todays equipment is foolish.

[hondaman321]

I agree with Greg, they had been top builds then and they got re classed with a lot of cars that are faster. Also the cars down south, i don't care who you are and if you believe it or not but they had been straight out illegal. I looked at the old sunbelt cars and know for a fact the motors had been extremely illegal. When they had been for sale, I inquired and was told you could rev them to 8400 rpms if necc. Tell me is that realistic in a legally built e36. NO WAY. With the stock valve springs it would never hold up, and that is what you could run legally. So again they are still competitive in ITR, however they received a change in class because of illegal modifications and yes the northeast has seen fully built e36's for years. I also agree with Andy with development and newer equipment and software they could def be faster.

[lateapex911]

Yes we have...but prior to '05 or so we called them "ITS".

GA

So they weren't full ITR builds, were they? Subtract weight, add 20% tire....= go slower? Should be faster, right?

[lateapex911]

I agree with Greg, they had been top builds then and they got re classed with a lot of cars that are faster.

No. Wrong. They got weight removed and tires added, and were put in another clas. That is NOT being "reclassed with a lot of cars that are faster".

Also the cars down south, i don't care who you are and if you believe it or not but they had been straight out illegal. I looked at the old sunbelt cars and know for a fact the motors had been extremely illegal.

What did you SEE (you said you LOOKED at them). What were the illegal parts, and how were they illegal? Pistons that were not of stock shape? Valves too big? What?

When they had been for sale, I inquired and was told you could rev them to 8400 rpms if necc. Tell me is that realistic in a legally built e36. NO WAY. With the stock valve springs it would never hold up, and that is what you could run legally.

Well, you were TOLD something in a sales pitch, and did they say they'd hold up?

So again they are still competitive in ITR, however they [s]received a change in class[/s] SIR restrictor because of (alleged) illegal modifications and yes the northeast has seen fully built e36's for years. I also agree with Andy with development and newer equipment and software they could def be faster.

Would be interested to hear the documentation of, or even specifics of the illegal mods.

test

[Greg Amy]

To think those guys couldn't be faster now with todays equipment is foolish.

Sure they'd go faster! 100# less weight and wider tires. But what "today's equipment"? Hoosier R6 tires, which are...from 2006 (and many argued at the time of the switch that the '05 was faster)? Those cars EXPLODED around the track, and were a primary factor that led directly to The Great Realignment.

But you are right that if any of these guys did this today, they'd kick butt. - GA

[anthony1k]

I bought a Porsche 944S to build into an ITR car, when I found one for a steal. When I really looked into it, research showed it could make nearly process power. But the cost. ugggg. While any car costs a lot to build into a front running racer, it's scary to do when the numbers suggest you'll be behind the 8 ball compared to other choices. If the Porsche had been a cheap build, it would have been worth the gamble if the $$ was reasonable. Kip told me what he's gone through, and the $. I'm glad it's him, not me. He's done well with the car, but, I still wonder where he'd be if he had chosen another route.

I agree. BMW's can draw from a vast pool of accumulated knowledge. Hardly anyone in the Porsche performance community bothers with the S2 anymore. After a complete .040 rebuilt that ran into serious $$ our S2 is so down on RWP compared to the e36's, its no wonder we were 3-4 sec off the pace. By the way, I'd love to know what Kip has done to his motor.