LRP lap times old vs. new

[dominojd]

If the Miata is at process weight, then that's really end of story.

And that is the big debate.

[JeffYoung]

Is the whole issue on process weight the 128 v. 133 hp difference?

If the cars on the same line came with a "highest" hp of 133 hp, I have to agree, that should be the number used in the process. Using the RX8 as an example, we've decided for better or for worse to live and die by stock hp ratings.

5 hp gives what, like 70 lbs in ITA?

[Doc Bro]

5 hp gives what, like 70 lbs in ITA?

5hp costs like what is the real question.... For the average guy who's almost there how much does another 5hp cost? Dyno time alone. Do the math....

Jeremy you DO have a dog in this fight. How quickly would your front row 240 have sold if it was a front row Miata at 4K. NY Minute??

Jeff Y. Don't think Kurt accused anyone of cheating. Just brought up previously mentioned facts in this thread and others. Ya know illegally ported head, questionable vacuum line into ECU before they were free. All stuff that's out in the open and not personal attacks.


R

PS; Doing the NHIS enduro in a Miata....that'll make my opinon more objective I do believe.

[JeffYoung]

Actually, he flat out accused Dan Jones of being blatantly illegal. See below.

I'm all for using the process, and think it should be used here. But I'll tell ya, if you think 70 lbs is going to be the difference between a well driven car and an "average one" (and that's coming from an average driver) dream on. I'm well aware of regional championship winning cars that were significantly over weight.

Andy didn't know the head he got from a builder down South (who I know) was illegally ported, and neither would you guys if he hadn't been straight up and told you. Just really weird to me that you are beating him up on that.

On the MAP sensor, I followed that one with great interest......aggressive interpretation of the rules, I agree. You guys all had a chance to protest it. Did you?

I find, as an outsider, a lot of this thread to be out of line and frankly sour grapes.

I am not miata bashing. Many other cars in the series are much faster then the other cars in that same class. The ITA miata is one example. It may be unfair advantages in classification or the driver may be better. Either way that car is fast and I was voicing my opinion. Its the same as Dan Jone's car. He fires up the car and just by listening it does not sound legal. If he believes it is, while that is purely fiction on his part. He is offline and sliding around as the car pulls ten cars down the straight away.

Kurt

[Z3_GoCar]

Is the whole issue on process weight the 128 v. 133 hp difference?

If the cars on the same line came with a "highest" hp of 133 hp, I have to agree, that should be the number used in the process. Using the RX8 as an example, we've decided for better or for worse to live and die by stock hp ratings.

5 hp gives what, like 70 lbs in ITA?

Ha, if that were the case then the Z3 should weigh within 50lbs of the Miata instead of 220lbs. R&T listed the factory hp at 138hp. In the introduction to the Z3 they state,

Power to weight-wise, the Miata (it's shadow never really leaves, does it?) has a mathmatical edge at 17.2 lb./bhp versus the Z3's 19.2.

If anything the Miata also can go lower than the Z3 because they can relocate the upper spring pertch. The Z3 has to live with the location on the chassis and can only get short springs. My lowest ride height on the rear is 6", we give up a whole 1/2" on rear ride height. So when the rear suspension is taken into account they should even weigh the same.

James

[Doc Bro]

I see the inference Jeff. I didn't give the statement credibility, but it was written. How you interpret the note of a car -I translated as a far fetched POV... my bad.

I'll go very strongly on record as saying I have no sour grapes toward Andy, FOM, or Miata's.

What I DO have sour grapes about: (and remember Andy said he has Pete P's SM engine, +60#, -15whp....NOT a full ITA build) No personal attacks here....just quotes.

How a 8/10ths car dominates (via lap time) 9-10/10ths cars from faster classes...including ALL cars from ITA and ITS and only 1 car from ITR.

It is either the car or the driver. If Andy claims to be THAT good, then I'm totally fine with everything (ie weight, classing, everything). I don't doubt that he's a better driver than me. I've said that directly to him. As I see it; racing comes down to 2 things...the car and the driver.

If it's not the driver (which can be proven/disproven) then it must be the car...no?


Great point James. The ITA Z3 came at 138 hp. Its ITA weight is 2600....within 5 hp of the 133hp Miata (but way off in weight) and it has an inferior rear suspension design compared to the Miata's....but there is no consideration for rear design in the "formula". Apparently the formula only considers the part of the car in front of the driver's butt. But, seeing how we live and die by the 'formula' it must be right.....

R

[Tkczecheredflag]

Is the whole issue on process weight the 128 v. 133 hp difference?

If the cars on the same line came with a "highest" hp of 133 hp, I have to agree, that should be the number used in the process. Using the RX8 as an example, we've decided for better or for worse to live and die by stock hp ratings.

5 hp gives what, like 70 lbs in ITA?

Jeff - I think the "ptential" build should also be considered.

Greg Amy made the points some very very valid points below that I thought had merit.

tGA says "1994 and 1995 Miata are on the same spec line. 1995 Miatas are rated at 133 horsepower. Ergo, both cars, if on the same line, should go through "the process" at 133 horsepower.

And before you "go there" again: if we're going to give horsepower "credit" for cars where the factory has done things "towards" IT-spec changes, then we need to do it fairly and across the board. Let's "credit" the Integra for Acura's good work on that engine, and let's "debit" the NX2000 for Nissan's crappy work there. Because "what's good for the goose..."

Seems like a good argument from where I stand.


The point I am interested in learning about is the "potential build." If I max out my legal build Integra at 145 hp and the Miata maxs out at 140ish - Then why is my weight spec #2620???

[Z3_GoCar]

Actually, he flat out accused Dan Jones of being blatantly illegal. See below.

I'm all for using the process, and think it should be used here. But I'll tell ya, if you think 70 lbs is going to be the difference between a well driven car and an "average one" (and that's coming from an average driver) dream on. I'm well aware of regional championship winning cars that were significantly over weight.

Andy didn't know the head he got from a builder down South (who I know) was illegally ported, and neither would you guys if he hadn't been straight up and told you. Just really weird to me that you are beating him up on that.

On the MAP sensor, I followed that one with great interest......aggressive interpretation of the rules, I agree. You guys all had a chance to protest it. Did you?

I find, as an outsider, a lot of this thread to be out of line and frankly sour grapes.

Jeff,

He accused Dan's motor of "sounding illegal" If there's one thing you should know about single vanos motors is the cam timing isn't set from the factory with a key, the cam sprockets are slotted for the mounting bolts....

James

[JeffYoung]

C'mon now. Not that it matters to me, but his second post on this board he said Dan's motor was illegal. Read the post. That's bad form to me, sorry.

Jeff,

He accused Dan's motor of "sounding illegal" If there's one thing you should know about single vanos motors is the cam timing isn't set from the factory with a key, the cam sprockets are slotted for the mounting bolts....

James

[JeffYoung]

Not quibbling with you guys but you do need to read up on the process.

You start with stock hp.

You multiply by an "IT potential" factor. This ranges from 10% to 30%, or soemthing like that. The default is 25%.

You then have subjective adders/subtractors for brakes, suspension (front and rear) and torque.

What's the stock Integra hp? I think it gets a 25% adder, as does the Miata, the Z3, the NX2000, etc.

You take the stock integra hp, add in 100 lbs for torque and I can see a 200 lb difference between it an a 128 stock hp Miata.

The Z3, I agree, the differnence in weight I don't see just by "roughly" looking at the process.

[Z3_GoCar]

C'mon now. Not that it matters to me, but his second post on this board he said Dan's motor was illegal. Read the post. That's bad form to me, sorry.

You're right Jeff, I had to go back and re-read the post I'd read a couple of hours ago. I thought the first time I read it he said Dan's motor sounds illegal. I was offering a reason why it might sound "cammy" when it's not. Also, the intake on the M-50 is the envy of every other S/M-52 out there. I wish I could keep the M-50 manifold, but then it wouldn't be legal if I did, so off it goes.

James

[Dano77]

To quote a very respected person"I have no dog in this fight". Niethe rdo I,but the late 95 and 96-7 miata also heave the higher comp pistons ergo 133 vs 128. You know,the pistons we were said to have installed in our 95. The 93 was built incorrectly & the cheatin owner has been dealt with. Oh yeah,the theme from Jaws should be building in SM & IT7 right about now. C-YA
Dan

[JLawton]

Wow, I'm impressed. You guys are letting Kurt off the hook fairly easy!!

[lateapex911]

yea, that comment was odd. My motor sounds "cheated up", but if you give me 5 minutes I can take my LEGAL carb off, and bolt in an ILLEGAL carb (Secondaries are mechanically actuated, not vacuum actuated, no actual performance difference), and the car will SOUND legal.

I'm happy to do the swap for any doubters.

Point being is that sometimes (most often) reality and perceptions don't align.

I also think I read in that post that there were some serious "insinuations' being made, although the grammer was odd and it's hard to really draw conclusions.

Annnnyyywayyyy............

So, for those of us who have seen a well driven/prepped ITA car in person, what do we think the Mosers would do at Lime Rock??

(And lets not get too silly about the legality of their cars, for the sake of argument, lets assume they could have achieved the same results using the legal distributor instead of the ones used in Ohio..)

[Andy Bettencourt]

I believe this is my first post, however I have watched scca club racing for years. Alot of cars are too fast. It makes no sense why you have to cheat and run alone. Andy was always a mid pack racer in its, however in ita he beats the its cars with his stock miata. Lots of other cars are extremely to fast as well, all you have to do is watch one event and pick them out. What is the fun if no one is around to race with. If you are out front winning your car should be built to the wall with every part available, not 60 pounds over and -15 hp.

Kurt

Kurt who? Help us know who you are.

I have been just reading a day and a half but this one is priceless. Define for me 'mid-pack' ITS racer. 3rd in NARRC points, 10ths off track records at NHIS, couple of pole positions, 1 win - oh ya, that was my first year in Club racing. Only ran another half a season in ITS after switching to this very Miata.

'Stock' Miata? Stock? The only think stock about it is the engine internals. All of the developed bolt-ons and programmable ECU along with 4 hours of dyno time went into the prep for that weekend alone. The suspension is 100% IT build.

Anyway, I guess it's all part of the game. Heard the same grousing about Serra's car in 2004-2005 and Greg's car in 2006 when they dominated every car in the Northeast.

Maybe I should be proud of MY accomplishents instead of getting defensive. I'll try that for a while.

[JLawton]

yea, that comment was odd. My motor sounds "cheated up", but if you give me 5 minutes I can take my LEGAL carb off, and bolt in an ILLEGAL carb (Secondaries are mechanically actuated, not vacuum actuated, no actual performance difference), and the car will SOUND legal.

I'm happy to do the swap for any doubters.

Point being is that sometimes (most often) reality and perceptions don't align.

I also think I read in that post that there were some serious "insinuations' being made, although the grammer was odd and it's hard to really draw conclusions.

Gee Jake, a little harsh on the poor guy!!!




I see where you're going with the Moser question.

What you're REALLY asking is whether the CRXs of the Mosers (10/10ths build) would keep up with Andy in his Miata dispelling any notion that the Miata is at the correct weight.......

Waaaaaaaiiiit a minute. That sounds like using on track performance to determine the performance potential and therefore the correct weight..........







.

[JLawton]

Kurt who? Help us know who you are.

I have been just reading a day and a half but this one is priceless. Define for me 'mid-pack' ITS racer. 3rd in NARRC points, 10ths off track records at NHIS, couple of pole positions, 1 win - oh ya, that was my first year in Club racing. Only ran another half a season in ITS after switching to this very Miata.

'Stock' Miata? Stock? The only think stock about it is the engine internals. All of the developed bolt-ons and programmable ECU along with 4 hours of dyno time went into the prep for that weekend alone. The suspension is 100% IT build.

Anyway, I guess it's all part of the game. Heard the same grousing about Serra's car in 2004-2005 and Greg's car in 2006 when they dominated every car in the Northeast.

Maybe I should be proud of MY accomplishents instead of getting defensive. I'll try that for a while.

That's what I'm talkin' about!!!!



Kurt, what Jake and Andy are trying to say is you're a zipper head and have no idea what you're talking about.




Andy, I'm surprised it took you so long to respond!!



.

[Greg Amy]

Why is Jeff Lawton reminding me of that kid that always ran around the schoolyard yelling "Did you hear what he said about your momma?!?!?"...again...?

[7racing]

Annnnyyywayyyy............

So, for those of us who have seen a well driven/prepped ITA car in person, what do we think the Mosers would do at Lime Rock??

(And lets not get too silly about the legality of their cars, for the sake of argument, lets assume they could have achieved the same results using the legal distributor instead of the ones used in Ohio..)

I don't know the Mosers cars, never seen either of them race, so I am not going to bite as to whether or not they are fast at LRP. Regardless of the outcome, there will be the following arguments on the results (depending on the results):
New to the track
Setup difficulties
Old Tires vs New Tires
The lemon pepper chicken at dinner causing a rash
Track Temp
Air Temp
Rain/no rain
Dehydration (not enough beer the night before)
Over-hydration (too much beer the night before)
Jet-lag/time difference
Time of day
solar flares bouncing off of some swamp gas showing ET on his bike riding down no-name.
etc, etc, etc.

It will never be clear-cut as to whose car/which driver is better. We all know there are a LOT of factors that go into winning a race. Picking the "hot car" is just 1 of them.

[Doc Bro]

Serra's car in 2004-2005 and Greg's car in 2006 when they dominated every car in the Northeast.

Ahh yes but then the Teg got weight, and the NX had the Stig driving...look what the new owners' done with it....ball it up at RA.

R