Question for all ITC drivers

[Tkczecheredflag]

Love you to death bro but to make a blanket statment like that about a model and the SCCA is bogus. You yourself took the blame by not protesting a singular driver in that instance.

There are bad drivers in every class. There are good drivers who have driven badly (guilty) at times. Let's not blame the car (class) for a drivers actions.

FIXED


Andy - I'm just adopting the mind set that I've heard the "powers to be" preaching the past few years (the one that sounds like if it weren't for SM and SSM are their car counts, where would we be as a club?) - It's not my original thought (I'm not sure I've ever had one frankly) - Sorry bro - I must confess to now being one of the Kool Aid drinkers - I'am a believer - Amen - Not a sarcastic bone in my body - really.

You have to admit from time to time a class of car (s) gets tagged as "Cowboys" - I remember when "A" had that distinction (the top 5 were forever destroying each other). I beleive that the Karl's had that "saddle up, giddy up, and ride em cowboy" thing goin' on - and yes they happened to be in a Maita - that's all - it is what it is.

Hey - I pulled out my cowboy boots the other day, dusted them off to see if they fit - Thought it might be time to take the heat off of Zoom Zoom guys.

[jjjanos]

There are bad drivers in every class. There are good drivers who have driven badly (guilty) at times. Let's not blame the car for a drivers actions.

While it is true there are bad drivers in every class, there is a much higher proportion of bad drivers in that class. Whether SM attracts sphincters or it creates sphincters is debatable. The past two 12 Hours at the Point have been S(S)M dominated in car counts and by 6PM, pretty much every single one of them has body damage. So is it the drivers doing it or the characteristics of the class forcing the drivers to do it to be competitive? Or is it, perhaps, an unwillingness of the Stewards to put on their bad cop hat?

What I will say this in defense of the car... a certain IT class at Summit was known for its carnage in the early 21st century BE that as it may, a new spec class come into being - SRX7. A large number of drivers declared that they were tired of being involved in carnage and were moving to the new class.

Carnage decreased in the old class and mayhem began in SRX7. Lo and behold! The very same drivers were involved in the carnage! Fast forward a few years, many of these SAME drivers have jumped into the new spec class.Plus, rustfree RX7 tubs were getting scarce. Mayhem! Chaos! Riot and ruin ensues... and, cue the Cassablanca tape, round up the usual suspects.

Sadly, there are way too many miatas on the road for the SRX7 effect to happen for many years.

[Andy Bettencourt]

This is something we can debate for years. I just hate to see that attitude because the issue is about drivers. Drivers who make contact a habit will do it in any car.

[Ed Funk]

My take on the situation is that a lot of the back 1/2 of the Wreck-Me-Otter field drivers are confusing aggression with skill. They see the fast guys in their class in "exactly" the same equipment going "X.X" seconds per lap faster than they are and drive more aggressively rather than more skillfully.

Could be wrong, it happened once before, when I thought I'd made a mistake!

[Rabbit05]

Hey all,

I have been reading this with great interest...and I have been trying not to toss "my 2 cents" in. I dont know how many of you have been in both worlds, ( SM & ITC ) . With my many, ,many , many thanks to my friend Rick, for letting me borrow his car !

I have, in on race weekend, drove my ITC car and a SM , in back to back classes. They are completely different animals as one might expect.

But the thing I have learned, and quickly, is that you want/need to be at the pointy end of the field if you dont want to do/see so highly questionable things happen. BUT with an ITC car running with SM , it puts you in the middle of the pack..Which their of have been incedents , like the one Tim described, in fact, I believe I was also hit that same race by an SM. And I need not to mention I am down one car due to some over zelous driving by an SM driver .... Again sorry Ed for that dreadfull day...

I never understood why they changed the classes up, ITA & ITC was great ! I also would of liked to see ITC run with ITB.

Would I go back into ITC ? No way , not running with SM.

Are all drivers in SM bad ?..

.....Absolutly NOT!! There are some great drivers in that class....!!


My take on it is this , If they refuse to move ITC out of SM... ITC in the N.E will die out....

plain and simple....



-John VanDenburgh

[spnkzss]

When you get into a Spec class, be it SM or SRX7, you are going to get that carnage/cowboy tag stamped to your forehead. It's the nature of the beast. Especially when you get large numbers of them. This is amateur racing, and when you get amateur together in cars that are "equal" (*cough* *cough*) you are going to get some rubbing. If all the IT classes were that close to being equal (no knock on ITAC, they have made it as level as can be) you would have the exact same thing. Personally, if I could afford to, I would love to go play with them, but can't afford the body repair monthly. I mean, look at NASCAR. You can barely go a week without seeing a car on it's roof and they are in a "spec" class and they are "professionals". It is what it is and that is what draws a lot of people to it.

Now with that said, because spec racing is "different" then IT type of racing, I think it is a bad idea to put IT cars with these Spec classes, unless you do a split start (which SCCA is not big on for various reasons). These guys (unless they started racing in another class) only know how to race other like cars. They know they need to be aggressive all the time or be run over/lose a position (almost like the DC beltway). I'm not trying to down play the level of racing in IT, I love it, but IT cars have weaknesses and strengths in different parts of the course, and you use them to your advantage (Unless you are at the ARRC running Spec CRX). Spec racing doesn't have that.

[Ed Funk]

Hey all,

I have been reading this with great interest...and I have been trying not to toss "my 2 cents" in. I dont know how many of you have been in both worlds, ( SM & ITC ) . With my many, ,many , many thanks to my friend Rick, for letting me borrow his car !

I have, in on race weekend, drove my ITC car and a SM , in back to back classes. They are completely different animals as one might expect.

But the thing I have learned, and quickly, is that you want/need to be at the pointy end of the field if you dont want to do/see so highly questionable things happen. BUT with an ITC car running with SM , it puts you in the middle of the pack..Which their of have been incedents , like the one Tim described, in fact, I believe I was also hit that same race by an SM. And I need not to mention I am down one car due to some over zelous driving by an SM driver .... Again sorry Ed for that dreadfull day...

I never understood why they changed the classes up, ITA & ITC was great ! I also would of liked to see ITC run with ITB.

Would I go back into ITC ? No way , not running with SM.

Are all drivers in SM bad ?..

.....Absolutly NOT!! There are some great drivers in that class....!!


My take on it is this , If they refuse to move ITC out of SM... ITC in the N.E will die out....

plain and simple....



-John VanDenburgh

Hey John, it was fun while it lasted and we'll miss you in itc, maybe everyone will miss us too, if the
VIN rule gets changed, we may go back to itb, already on the lookout for the necessary FI parts to convert the two cars. ITA/ITC was a good combo, maybe those in power don't want to see an itc car beat ita cars in the rain (Right Tim!?) In the mean time we'll keep beating our head on the wall 'cause it'll feel so good when we stop! or we'll race at other venues.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Hey John, it was fun while it lasted and we'll miss you in itc, maybe everyone will miss us too, if the
VIN rule gets changed, we may go back to itb, already on the lookout for the necessary FI parts to convert the two cars. ITA/ITC was a good combo, maybe those in power don't want to see an itc car beat ita cars in the rain (Right Tim!?) In the mean time we'll keep beating our head on the wall 'cause it'll feel so good when we stop! or we'll race at other venues.

Ed - You're going to make me search through the boxes again aren't you?- I think I have the wiring harness FI head, intake and fuel injection set up from my first days in "A". I believe I also have the short block too - something is living on that engine stand. I canablized an '87 CRX so the harness should be good for Steph's car.

Although many "C" drivers have come close to winning overall in the ITA/ITC days ( I think Brian M came in 2nd to Jake G at NHIS and I grabbed a 3rd at LRP behind Richie H and Rick , I do not recall a "C" driver getting it ALL at the checkered. Am I wrong? Is there a "C" driver out there that has the bragging rights?? Love to hear it.

Let me know if I should look through the boxes again or if I gave you that stuff already.

[gran racing]

If all the IT classes were that close to being equal (no knock on ITAC, they have made it as level as can be)

The difference is in IT classes, cars have different advantages over other types. Greg's NX2000 had super power but the CRXs had better handling. In that situation, the NX driver could wait for a straight or a CRX could attempt a pass in the corners. SM cars in theory are equal throughout the track which makes people attempt passes where maybe they shouldn't.

The ITB / ITC grouping can create issues as well. I recall a few ITC cars down in the 1:04s at Lime Rock which is right were the front runners in ITB are. Having two classes where the front runners are right alongside with eachother could get interesting as well.

[Ed Funk]

[

Let me know if I should look through the boxes again or if I gave you that stuff already.
[/quote]

Hold on to it Tim, we're talking about getting a couple Spec Miatas!!:eek:

[Ed Funk]

The ITB / ITC grouping can create issues as well. I recall a few ITC cars down in the 1:04s at Lime Rock which is right were the front runners in ITB are. Having two classes where the front runners are right alongside with eachother could get interesting as well.[/quote]

I think the itc record is a high 1:04, and the itb record is a low 1:03, two seconds a lap puts me down at least a 1/2 lap but probably running in the front 1/3 of the itb field, I spent 15 years in that locale, I like those guys better than the SMs. Of course that assumes that I can get one of the Hondas down to the 1:04s, I think the cars can do it, and maybe I could if I wasn't being forced or punted into the weeds on the 2nd lap!:026:

[gran racing]

Low 1:03s won't happen in an ITB car until the repave, at least with a legal car. Low 1:04s and just touching high 1:03s, maybe.

[Andy Bettencourt]

IIRC, Richie Hunter hit 1:04 flat at the NARRC Runoffs in 2006 and at the 2007 event and Eric Langlius went 1:03.9.

Low 1:03's would be crazy on the current track. At this years Runoffs if teh weather holds, I bet it happens.

[Tkczecheredflag]

After reading thru this link again, my question is this - are the drivers (SSM/ITC) and Officials, doing all they can, to keep things safe (and respectable) when putting "C" cars in the SSM or SM mix? - and yes the SSM cars are Miatas and represent the majority of drivers - I can't get way from that fact AB. I think that is the basic question that is being asked here. I think if SRF was the "class" in question, we would be asking the same question about fords, and talking about fords - right? To that point - SRF is a spec class - I don't ever recall the "cowboy" tag being placed on the SRF guys. When I was flagging corners in the early '90's and the SRF fields were full, it appeared that they raced each other with respect, like true "amateurs" - that point was made, right - this is amateur racing. They weren't perfect - none of are - but they weren't cowboys either. If SRF registration was "saving SCCA" we would be asking the same questions of that spec class right? - it's not a bias against Miatas. So is enough being done?

The only other question I have would be this - was SSM driver, Karl Sr. right when he informed me I needed to "learn that racing is a contact sport", as a way of explaining why he punted me at LRP - ya see it's the attitide I am biased against - and that attitiude appears to be more accepted here - maybe that's my struggle.

If Karl was right then I need more "schooling" in this area - please let me know, as I am always open to learning.

[lateapex911]

Timmy, if I got that as a response after an incident that I felt was uncalled for, (and video and eye witnesses backed me up on) I'd be enraged. Really enraged, and would certainly not control my reaction as I probably should.

I would either/or, or maybe a combination of:
A- Call him all sorts of derogatory names and threaten him with bills and over the top repercusions...
B- March my pissy ass down to the tower and write up a scathing protest, complete with his quote, and eyewitness accounts of same, and find every last item on his car to throw the book at too.
C: Wait until a hot, muggy day, and follow him by a discreet distance as he uses a portapotty, then a quick wrap with duct tape and a heave ho!. followed by a "How do you like THAT contact sport, Sport?" and leave him to consider the deeper meanings of life....(that last one would probably cost me a few hundred to pay the company to do a cleanup, but it might be worth it..

What I would NOT do, is get pissed at all Miata, or SSM, or SM drivers, unless I felt they all shared that belief.,,,however, I would be forewarned.

[JLawton]

If Karl was right then I need more "schooling" in this area - please let me know, as I am always open to learning.

As someone you run door handle to door handle with, I think ya got things juuuuuust right!!!



The problem is two fold.

- SM/SSM is a great place for beginners. Cheap to have, easy to drive and reliable. Easy to feel like a hero at 9/10s but can easily bite you in the ass at 10/10s (so I've heard)

- Being a spec class, cars don't have advantages in different parts of the track like in IT. Passes are very difficult............Risky passes are inevitable.

The combination leads to craziness.

Again, is it too lake to request that ITC be put into the ITA run group?? I would love to run 'em in the rain!!

[StephF]

I'm coming in late to this one because I had to walk away from this board for awhile after the last ITC thread.

I've never said, nor felt that any one class of drivers is awful because of the cars they choose to compete in.

I DO take exception to having my car damaged heavily enough that it has to go on a frame machine because a driver in another class ignored the most basic premise of the GCR: Sportsmanlike conduct.

I don't care WHAT group you are in, the old "rubbing is racing" and "racing is a contact sport" is just another way of saying you are too much of a pantywaist to be able to run cleanly and competitively without punting/slamming/blocking/chopping/and otherwise driving like a total dickwad.

If you can't make a pass stick without taking someone out, get out of the car. You don't belong there. If you think it's OK to ruin someone elses' car, and cause them financial pain to better your finishing position because you can't do it cleanly, then get out of the car now. And if you think it's OK to be snickering in the paddock about hitting someone, then you, sir or madam, and a total POS, and I DON'T mean point of sale.

Accidental contact is one thing. Deliberate, malicious, boneheaded contact should be dealt with swiftly and severely, no matter WHAT group it is. Somehow, we have moved away from that as a club, to the point that someone is going to get killed or severely injured from it.
Pretty sporting that is, huh? "Hey man, sorry you're a parapalegic, that really sucks, but hey, I'm the NARRC champion! Like my f-ing ashtray?"

What happend to Tim is completely unacceptable. That guy should have been punted out of the club for a few races and sent back to a driver's school if he was to return.

Also,here's a reminder to a few of the folks running out there: No matter WHAT race group you run in, you should not actively interfere with another race groups lead battle unless you are in a heated battle for position within your own group. And by that I mean blocking, chopping, slamming into etc.

Personally I am sick and tired of the condescending attitude (from some people, not all of you) that has been shown over this whole issue any time the groupings come up. I understand the difficulty of making fair groupings speed wise. And I've heard the pat answer, "Well not everyone will like it, oh well, tough noogies for you." (first I was told that our current grouping was because the two groups are the closest time wise, now suddenly we are grouped with faster cars, yet not other IT cars...what's up with that?)

And now, we have people coming on this site saying, well looks like C's dead, lets kill it completely and 'craft a solution' because this is what 'the market wants'. Meanwhile, just in this one thread, there have been drivers (that's plural, folks) coming in saying, "I am now out of C BECAUSE OF THIS GROUPING."

We are supposed to be a club, not a dictatorship like NASA. And if everyone in the race class is saying the same thing, then how about the courtesy of hearing what we are trying to say and actually LOOKING at the situation to see if it isn't a good fit?

If it turns out that there just plain isn't an easy place, then we should examine other options, such as allowing a split start when there are X number of C cars entered. Then we both run off and play without pissing each other off.

(now you see why I had to walk away from the last thread....)

[cpm motorsports]

What I would NOT do, is get pissed at all Miata, or SSM, or SM drivers, unless I felt they all shared that belief.,,,however, I would be forewarned.

I should probably keep my 'two cents' out of this, and in the race car purse where it belongs, but my question is this, how did the SSM/SM drivers, get the term "Cowboys", if that is not in fact the way they drive.

[Ed Funk]

Now you guys have done it!! I'm glad I'm gettin' out of Dodge for a few days! She'll either slap me silly! or slap me, silly!

Seriously, she makes some very good points, I wish I could argue with that much eloquence, instead of my usual "Oh, yeah!?! Well, F*** Off!"

I think it's too late to re-do the groupings for this year, I just wish someone could explain the reluctance to have split starts. Tho, that doesn't help with practice/qualifying, where I've also had issues with the "other" class---thought that one had the potential of being a 10 on one brawl! Luckily, Steph was there and she has a cooler head and a much more effective right hook!

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think many people make a big mistake in categorizing a whole class based on a few drivers. If a 10 car field has 1 or 2 questionable moves, then a 30 car SM field will have 3-4 questionable moves. It's a simple math thing - when you add to that some of the factors Lawton correctly points out, the dynamics are slightly different - not to say acceptable - but different.

And I don't thing ANYONE said what happened to Tim is ok. Not at all.

Split starts for 2-3 ITC cars? No way. I am no expert on SS, but I am betting a little more space is needed in order to pull them off safely and consistantly than the 1.5 mile tracks were run on. Plus, think about the start proceedure at NHIS...

Tim, I bet there is someone on here that will dispute that SRF drivers never had issues. They most certainly have. Heck, the biggest field of FV's I have ever seen was at the NARRC Runoffs this past year...I counted 4 TOTALLED cars and 2 more damaged before their run group was over. Numbers count for something.

Having said all that, I must repeat myself. Serge has spearheaded a groundswell to self-police the SM and SSM groups. It seemed to have worked well last year other than a few freak acidents that weren't attributed to any 'copboy' antics.

The size of ITC being what it is, I think it could float into the ITA, IT7, SSB, SSC, T3 NARRC group if you HONESTLY think the SM grouping is keeping cars away. Send a note to the committee. Let's all be part of the solution.