Breaking News from LRP

[jjjanos]

Seems to me that there is a great deal of coulds and mights in this topic.

I would have thought that, before getting people worked into a frenzy, the region responsible for the crisis already would have had an answer regarding whether not using the date would be a permanent loss.

And while I agree with the cats that all of the fun is in the box, it seems to me that perhaps the solution might lie outside the box.

If keeping the date is a requirement to keep the date in the future, perhaps someting involving the Hill Climb community or the placement of cones to make LRP suitable for a Solo. I.e. some combination of Solo-1, Solo-2, PDX, road racing (obviously not all of them over the same weekend, but some out-of-the box combo.)

Hell, have the TSD guys finish a rally at LRP and sell freaking tickets for a giant NER Barbie Cue.

And I would disagree that a Region cannot take a $50K hit. A Region the size of NER should have an emergency fund on which to call in the event of.... an emergency. What a Region cannot do is take a hit like that year after year.

[benspeed]

I read through the entire thread before offering up my opinion. The spirit of cooperation across the NEDIV has significantly improved - to place another date against Pocono is truly offensive considering the time, cost and effort the hard working folks at Tri-Region have put into this event. They have not had the opportunity for some time to book a race that will hopefully make a little money or break even - not put them in the debt column.

The fact that Management at LRP places SCCA in ackward positions on time, money and broken promises makes me think they have little of our interest at heart. In fact, they shouldn't consider screwing us because their paving schedule falls into the heart of the race season. This is yet another example of the poor managment of that track. If we elect not to take the alternative date because it is bad for our club and they retaliate by pulling dates in the future - are these the kind of people we should do business with?

Nobody has to take the LRP date. If our club leaders elect to do so that will demonstrate a major lapse in judgement and consideration for our club - yes, the people working to put on the Tri Region race are members - why would anybody consider screwing these people? They got their date for Pocono scheduled and the region who had LRP lost their dates - simple as that.

If anybody disagrees with the premis that two events on the same weekend is foolish, please speak up now. I believe that is a recipe for major financial trouble for two events - and Tri Region is in the worst position to endure that. If I was their Treasurer I would cancel Pocono in a LRP event is taken against their date. The financial risk is too great. I don't know what deposit they have with Pocono, I used to put out $10K if memory serves for NNJR. It would be cheaper to lose that then $30K or more if the event is a bust and everybody goes to LRP.

Show some consideration here - some real thoughtless shelfish BS is going on and it makes me quite pissed.

[bg43wex]

Not true: no one HAS to take a date. NER may CHOOSE to take the date in lieu of losing it in the future.

If NER CHOOSES to do this, then NER should be the one to take the hit, no one else.

Greg are you saying take the date and eat 55 grand for the good of Tri Region?

[Magical Trevor]

I think it's important to remember that this is all speculation-the most solid fact so far is still only that the track will be paved during June-that's it.
Granted, it is enough to throw us all into a panic (as the thread shows), but I hope and think there's more track-region communication forthcoming to make this simpler...

[robits325is]

The true irony here is that we have been paying into the pavement fund for the past few seasons and now that we are actually going to get new pavement we won't be able to use the track.

[dickita15]

Note that this is not a personal attack on you, Dick, but you're trying to support the idea that the only alternative for NER is to F**K-OVER another region so we can keep a date at LRP?!?!? Frankly, I find that absolutely effing absurd. No date at ANY track is worth that, and it blatantly illustrates the ABSOLUTE STUPIDITY that has resulted from the local SCCA regions trying to "compete" for events. It has evolved from putting on races to a political football for organizers jockeying for power, clearly in the face of the whole point of being there.

Hell, dude, I'll pay the effin entry fee to instruct if that's what it takes!!! But if our region goes forward with this, well, I don't know what I'm going to do long term, but you can rest assured I'll start paying attention to the hosting region for future events and avoid NER events, even if it means traveling more to race.

I will NOT be a willing participant of such actions. - GA

Greg, if that is what you infer is my opinion from what I have written you need to take a remedial reading course. I do not believe that I have said what I believe the region should do.
As stated by others this discussion is occurring without every option having been explored yet and it has some good points but because of the nature of it there are some things that are not yet known.

[JohnRW]

Before you guys all spin off into a low earth orbit of ad hominem and back-stabbery, I'll refer you back to post # 57 in this thread, wherein it is written (cue celestial music):

"SCCA Operations Manual - Section 5.9 "Club Racing Schedule Procedures"

5.9.4: "Normally, no two race events will be held on the same day within a reasonable day's driving distance unless the Regions involved agree."

Soooo....who actually thinks that Tri-Region would agree to this ? Raise your mouse, please ! Only one vote per household !!!

[lateapex911]

it's sad to see a place you have loved so much over the years turn their back on you and dick you over, and I'm afraid that everything I hear about lime Rock leaves me with that nasty taste in my mouth. I don't deal with the track directly, but I have talked with those that do, and their reports are always bleak. They seem to use our help in staffing the events, but turn a deaf ear on our offers to help run events more reasonably. Former staff members at Lime Rock have shaken their heads when i asked what it was like to work there. "You don't want to know", they say. granted, this is just hearsay and babble, but, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the management came to us and said, "Sorry, you refused your date last year, and you don't have that option left". Not one bit.

I agree with Ben that LRP is clearly interested in themselves first and foremost, and their management calls have been less than wise in the past.

So...if I were part of the NER team that deals with LRP, I'd get it in writing that if we turn the date down, we don't lose our option.

If we get that in contract form, then let it go.

I've been unaware of the proximity of the Pocono events in the past. I honestly wouldn't attend a Pocono event in past years as I hate the track, the surrounding area, the food at the track..and the staff I've dealt with were rude. But, that's a narrow view. Certainly holding competing regionals is very bad form.

I don't know what the NER financial situation is, nor do i know the profit/loss of a normal LRP event, but...IF NER isn't assured that they will keep their date option, it would appear that they have to buy the date, and that of course sucks, at least in terms of what we know today.

At that point, it looks like the date would have to be used in the best way, and I'd hope that could be a school/PDX, or perhaps a co event lapping/ test day with a vintage group to mitigate the loss.

I could see accepting a certain loss as acceptable to ensure the racing future of the club if the NER powers felt that the risk of losing dates was unacceptable.

Certainly the viability of the Palmer project comes into play here as well. If we feel confident that Palmer is a go and we will be on track on 2010, then telling LRP to pound sand might be sweet.

[Greg Amy]

Greg are you saying take the date and eat 55 grand for the good of Tri Region?

No, Brian. I'm saying that NER needs to seriously consider THEIR impact on the OTHER region when THEY decide to accept a date in lieu of giving up the date for next year (assuming, of course, dem be da facts, which is all we can do since you've not bothered to tell us anything further). If NER didn't want to eat the $55k, they're perfectly at option of telling LRP "go pound sand". Then they (we) lose absolutely zero.

And, please: to say that NER will "lose $55k" (by, I assume, hosting a school or PDX instead of a Regional) is being disingenuous, at best, and outright lying, at worst. The cost to run the event, I assume, is $55k, but clearly there is revenue involved with a school and/or PDX; the true costs of showing consideration to a fellow region in the same division, one whom they'll have to work with in both the short- and long-term future, is FAR FAR less than the outright cost of renting the track.

So, you're trying to convince me that you have only two options? Either do it "all the way" or don't do it at all?

If one were to assume that NER is willing to have consideration for the positions and well-being of other regions, yet truly wish to retain that date with LRP, and instead of running a competing Regional choose to run a combined PDX/school - possibly in cahoots with an organization such as PDA/NASA *CERTAIN* to bring in enough street cars to nearly fill the paddock - and in the end accept the possibility of a reasonable loss to retain that date in future years, then the loss would be relatively negligible. Shit, man, you provide an unmuffled open track day to PDA/NASA and you'll have BMWs and Corvettes *out the ass* willing to pay you mega-bucks to go toodle around *along with* nearly a full crew of folks willing to corner-work!

However, if NER were to choose to tell Tri-Regions "F* you, we have to look out for ourselves", and instead run a competing Regional on the same weekend, I have absolutely no doubt that the event would show a positive cash flow, with competitors looking to run on the virgin track. But, I also suggest to you that the long-term damage to any remaining spirit of cooperation from other regions - and certainly any respect from competitors open-minded enough to recognize what's going on in that regard - will far exceed any relatively negligible long-term downsides.

You guys (I'm assuming you, Brian, are involved in the discussions) get to make the call. You have all the information. And, you know where the respondents to date stand. Rest assured your actions will be judged for a long time to come.

All you have to do is make the "right" decision.

Greg, if that is what you infer is my opinion from what I have written you need to take a remedial reading course.

Dick, I only read what I read. I hear you, but I infer from your words that you're trying to find excuses for this. I cannot agree. Though, I give you the "devil's advocate" benefit of the doubt, thus the comment that it's not a personal attack, only a disagreement with the stated premise.

there are some things that are not yet known.

Which, of course, adds to the frustration. Someone probably has a good idea of all the facts, assuming there are any not revealed, yet they're perfectly content to let us twist in the wind here online without providing them. Ask for feedback yet not provide all the facts? Would this be a game?

Hey, you know, I've made my position(S) clear. Absent any further facts I follow Ben's description: it would be foolish and offensive to host a full-up event at LRP in direct conflict with Tri-Region's prior-scheduled and -agreed Pocono event.

You guys asked for opinions; well, you got 'em. If you don't want 'em, don't ask for 'em. - GA

[jjjanos]

Before you guys all spin off into a low earth orbit of ad hominem and back-stabbery, I'll refer you back to post # 57 in this thread, wherein it is written (cue celestial music):

"SCCA Operations Manual - Section 5.9 "Club Racing Schedule Procedures"

5.9.4: "Normally, no two race events will be held on the same day within a reasonable day's driving distance unless the Regions involved agree."

Soooo....who actually thinks that Tri-Region would agree to this ? Raise your mouse, please ! Only one vote per household !!!

Me thinks it won't matter what Tri-Region wants for a couple of reasons...

1. Our laws are the GCR and the By-Laws. The Operations Manual is a guide.

2. The first word in 5.9.4 - Normally. That makes following this section OPTIONAL.

National is more worried about getting its fees for sanctioning and insurance than about the health of any individual Region. If NER simply plays the "we'll permanently lose a date at LRP" card, then, for the "good" of the Club, National will ensure that both regions drop the soap.

[RSTPerformance]

This is crazy, lets all stop backstabbing and work together. Can anyone actualy provide the real facts??? If not then pause the slamming until we get them. Everybody is making VERY GOOD points but unfortunatly nobody on this thread seems to have a clue, and if they do they are not sharring the info needed to create a feasable resolution.

This all reminds me of the questions I have had since I was old enough to realize we had different regions... why do we have them?

Lets not forget we are all members of SCCA no matter what region it is and we should all be working together not against each other.

Brian-

You started this so you obviosly have the inside line (not sure your position within the region anymore but...). I would hope that NER and yourself will post real facts and enough information for your members to make a rational opinion and give more reasonable feedback BEFORE you or anyone else running the region make any decissions in this sensitive matter. If you do it any other way then I certainly think it would be a huge political and business mistake.

Raymond Blethen

[dickita15]

Again Greg I do not believe anywhere in my posts have I expressed an opinion. You said:

Then accept the date as a loss leader to retain it for subsequent years, and run it as a school. NER takes the financial hit as an investment towards the future, novices get the opportunity to attend a school - thereby increasing NER's market pool of potential entrants for the '08 season - and no "competitive conflicts" exist between supposedly-friendly regions hosting races on the same week(end) via targeting the same potential entrant pool.

If LRP is forcing SCCA to take a hit, financial or otherwise, because of their repaving schedule, it should be placed on the shoulders of the region(s) that happened to have scheduled during that timeframe.

To do otherwise is supremely selfish, rude, and self-centered. - GA

Following that suggestion would cost NER about 50K. I would estimate 85K in expenses and 30-35k in income.
This is a developing situation and no all the facts are not know but if you feel you do not have enough information to form a rational opinion then you don’t have to play the “game”. Apparently your choice is to be insulting.

[Greg Amy]

Apparently your choice is to be insulting.

Wait a sec: in what way am I being "insulting" to you, Dick?

By saying it would be rude and self-centered for NER to schedule a date on top of Tri-Region's already-established date? So, you're telling me you disagree with that?

By writing I disagree with a premise that it's wrong to do this? So, you disagree with this?

What personal attacks? What slamming? Disagreeing - and specifically stating the reasons why - is a personal attack? I don't see any place where I've called anybody names, referring specifically to actions taken, and I've very simply - and passionately - made clear that these options are, in very real terms, a jerk-ass thing to do. Hell, I don't even know who gets to make the final decisions; if that's you, then you have every right to accept my rants as directed at you. But if not, why take offense because I may disagree with you?

I do not believe anywhere in my posts have I expressed an opinion

Then how can you - or anyone else, really, in this conversation stream - POSSIBLY take personal offense from anything I've written??

Whatever, dude. Frankly, I personally find it insulting that this option is even on the table. To me the "right" answer is clear; and, honestly, if (collective) you cannot see this then debating the whole issue is, well, pointless.

As The Bettencourt would say: Enjoy your conversation; I'm "out". - GA

[dickita15]

Greg, I am going to type slowly to make sure I am understood.
I do not think you have attacked me personally and I have no problem personally with the minor exception of you jumping to the conclusion I had voiced an opinion, we are fine.
I do think you are being extremely insulting to the region.
First you seem to assume that NER would choose to “screw” another region casually.
You state that competition between the regions is bad and we should all work together.
You then say if there is a financial hit because of the LRP situation it is NER’s and NER’s problem alone.
No offence to Tri Region, they are doing the best they can, but every year they need favors to survive as a racing region. I don’t see them in a position to give them.
You say the solution is obvious with the facts you know then say if you don’t have all the facts it is “our” fault.
I did not start this thread and I am not sure I would have but the kind of attitude you exhibit in this thread is the reason that many believe these types of forums don’t work for these kinds of discussions.
Greg, I love ya man, but I think in this thread you have been over the top.

[lateapex911]

Guys, lot's of things we don't know here.

Brian, contrary to opinions, probably has told us everything he knows. Trust me, Lime Rock will tell us when they are good and gash darn ready, and not a minute sooner. i am sure we will be the LAST to know. They are hedging their bets, playing their hand close, and they are beholden to ALMS, NASCAR and their LRP club members first, and everything else second. So let's not jump on Brian for holding information back.

Second, most of us don't know the costs and revenues involved in an event at LRP. Lots of good suggestions here, but some might not apply, because LRP charges NER differently than anyone else for certain dates. (this is one of the big bucks unmuffled weekend dates we're discussing). From my understanding, LRP charges for things that are completely un-needed, but if you want the date, you gotta take 'em. From my digging around, not other track in the nation charges as much for so little to SCCA regions.

So, the region is tossing out ideas, getting feedback, and considering it's options.

Raymond, there are lots of reasons for having regions, but basically, the country is too large to be managed effectively by National. And different areas of the country have differing needs. The flexibility afforded by regional management ensures that those needs are considered.... kind of a for the members/by the members method. Small regions are great because they cater to the needs of their members, but don't have the financial clout to get some things done. Big regions have the bucks, but sometimes they have to do things that don't please all the members. Each area has the ability to adjust the size to something that works for them. Times change however, and we've seen that when Lime Rock track rent goes from 22k to 55k (!), smaller regions like Mohud can get wiped out in one poorly attended event. As the business models change, so must the regions.

[Tkczecheredflag]

I've been watching this thread from the "Paddock" and I would like to raise one question.

Do we have any leverage that we are overlooking?

Keeping in mind that I believe LRP is watching this thread I will offer this thought anyway.

The only leverage that I think we have is our "volunteerism" - The heart and soul of our great club. Why can't we have all of our Volunteer Officials (T&S, F&C, Tech) show up as we usually do, to a LRP "big money" event, and on the day of the big race refuse to take "control" of the track - stopping the event. Sort of a "Writers Guild" approach. If we (SCCA) loose, you (LRP) loose too

I don't know how that effects our relationship with the Sanctioning bodies but it's a thought. If LRP wants the benefits that our club offers for their events, we are suggesting a little "give and take" - Not just "take."

Is this thinking absurd? It's the best I can come with amist all the "caution laps, red flags and black flag all " we're running on this thread.

By the way - I would do it big, newspaper reporters, TV stations, Magazine people pickett lines with signs - exposing the Demon- a major Connecticut event.

[gran racing]

Unfortunately that would hurt a lot more than just LRP...all the people who spend big bucks to attend, kids (myself included), sponsors, and the list goes on.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Unfortunately that would hurt a lot more than just LRP...all the people who spend big bucks to attend, kids (myself included), sponsors, and the list goes on.

Your missing my point - LRP is in control of "who" looses "what" not us - Right?. All they have to do is insure "smooth sailing" is not take away our track dates. If we get our track dates, they get the voulunteers - please don't take the role of the "bad guy" Dave. The DMV boys would shut that place down so fast without flaggers, it would make Chip Ganassi head spin.

I suspect if the Voulnteers didn't take control of the track on Memorial Day weekend, LRP might want to re-think their position with us - No???

Are we obligated to Staff their facility on Memorial Day? Can't we show up on Friday and get a little "blue smoke flu" on Saturday or Monday. There is "power in numbers."

What am I missing?

What does CCR say? "I see a bad moon rising".

[Andy Bettencourt]

Tim,

The problem as I see it is that the 'Pro' events are presitgeous for workers to work. Like us racers, some races are more attractive. We are already light for committments for the Memorial Day weekend because of the GAC race at LRP.

I don't feel the workers will 'unionize' enough to pull something like that off - even if I did think it was a good idea...and it's not just workers from one region, it would have to be workers from ALL of them.

Best case? LRP doesn't hurt us next year for not taking this date, the Pocono event is a success and nobody loses money.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim,

The problem as I see it is that the 'Pro' events are presitgeous for workers to work. Like us racers, some races are more attractive. We are already light for committments for the Memorial Day weekend because of the GAC race at LRP.

I don't feel the workers will 'unionize' enough to pull something like that off - even if I did think it was a good idea...and it's not just workers from one region, it would have to be workers from ALL of them.

Best case? LRP doesn't hurt us next year for not taking this date, the Pocono event is a success and nobody loses money.

I understand and I am not trying to make trouble - I just want to make sure that ALL of our strenghts and resources are being looked at carefully - and that things are equitable for ALL concerned. I'm not trying to hurt anyone, just trying to embellish our mutual relationship - My way of saying, "we need each other, right?" If LRP doesn't see it that way then maybe a strong action is in order.

Re: GAC at LRP - I can only think that if there was incentive (so much for volunteerism) for volunteers to come to NHMS for Memorial Day it might take care of the "committment" issue, and might leave Skip holding his "skippy."

Hey - we have RAL, we could have RAS (race against skippy) - I bet I could find some sponsors for that effort - So we could pay our volunteers ( I know, oxymoron with the emphasis in bold) - a small gesture but it could be a fun theme. We could get dressed up in costume (like Cheap Date) - I would dress up like an "older grey haired guy looking for his roots." I would also be willing to kick in extra money for the workers fund.

Okay - Enough - I'm finished.