Cash Payouts?

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

Hi guys,

There are 2 other guys I'm friends with at school who race. One races asphalt ovals, and the other does drag racing. In both cases, at least the winners get a check, and the winnings decrease further down the pack. Both guys pay less for their entry fee than I do ($50 for the drag racer, $100 for the oval guy), The oval racer can make about $1,500. The drag racer made almost $30,000 last year just in winnings. Why dont we do this?

Pros:

1.More cars-obviously people might travel further if they think they can win some money. People may come out of their hiatus if they can make some money back from the weekend, and not loose $400 every race.

2.Better racing- Those traveling to the track for money will be the faster cars/drivers hoping to make some cash

3.More fans=more $$$- With the accumulation of the faster cars, there will be better racing which will attract fans

4. Regions make more $$$- With the drivers traveling more the drivers will not only stick to racing in their region, but maybe 2 or 3 regions. This will allow for better competition, more cars, and more money for the regions because of the surplus of racers.

5. Better regional championships- Instead of a regional championships for 3 or 4 sections of the North East, there could be one. Each driver could race in 2 or 3 regions fairly easily, and make the North East regional championship more competitive points wise by including races from VIR to New Hampshire.

The region could spread the entry fees fairly easily. Raise the entry maybe $20. Take half the entry fee from each class, and use that to pay-out the drivers. 1st place gets 50%, and then as each position decreases, the payout decreases 5% until 10th, with the region keeping the rest.

I'm sure this has been beat to death, but I had an offer to drive an asphalt oval car, and I can win money if I even place 16th. I really love road racing, but it is frustrating when pretty much every other form of racing is getting some reimbursement for their efforts, and I loose a lot of money every weekend, especially when I work my ass off every week at $8.00 an hour just to race my car.

Sorry for the length,
Steven

[JLawton]

I think the biggest challenge is #3. There are tons of NASCAR fans out there. The races are held on Friday and Saturday nights for a few hours. It's the fan base that pays the winning, not the entry fees.

Plus, it's the tracks that put on the races in circle track. With road racing the clubs rent from th tracks and pay a hefty, HEFTY fee for that. So it cuts out the middle man.

Have you checked out the Pro IT? You won't make $30K but at least a little towards tire money.

[joeg]

Red Mist--bad enough in club racing, but you haven't seen anything until you post a cash purse instead of trophies.

If you like fixing wrecks all the time more power to you.

If you are a hired driver--meaning all you do is arrive and drive at an oval and your compensation is what your finishing position pays--no problem. If you own the car, forget it. The meager winnings will not cover anything.

[Flyinglizard]

SCCA is anti spectators. Not gunna happen.
Go to one of your race venues, and stop at a gas station 5 miles from the track, ask anyone where the track is or what do they know about the track. You would be surprised at how little is known about the local Road course.
Now ask about the local oval track...

The road racing is not fan friendly and pretty boring. The fast guy starts in the front and drives away. 3 passes for the lead is a big deal.
Oval tracks are alot more fan friendly. The races are short, the fast guys start in the back and race the whole way through the pack. lots better entertainment, over in maybe ten or twenty minutes.
For a payout race you have to start the fast guys in the back, add reward weight to the ringer cars, etc..
MM

[StephF]

Cash payouts for our racing?
Oh God.......

Been there...


done that............

Don't need to do that again.....................

There aren't enough junked Hondas out there to be able to keep fixing our cars if you start waving cash in front of IT drivers....it's bad enough when there are spectators.

[gran racing]

Increase entry fees to pay the faster guys to become faster... Or give incentives to do even dumber things as others have mentioned.

If there are ways to get spectators, merchandising, and other ways to raise money then reduce everyone's entry fee - that I'm all for.

[rcc85]

Yeah, the oval track guys can win prize money, but they spend a lot to do it. My local dirt track pays about $1500 to win for a weekly show in the top two classes (Big Block Modified and Super Late Model). I think engines are still in the $25,000 range and rolling chassis are $15,000. I don't know what they spend a week on tires and crash damage but it adds up. Forget about making any money in the lower classes that pay $500 or less to win.

Back in '99, when I moved up out of karts, I looked at running a dirt car. I had raced karts on dirt ovals(and they had prize money) and road courses (they didn't). There were two dirt tracks within 30 minutes of my house and the nearest road course was 3 1/2 hours away, so the dirt car had some appeal. But even with sponsorship potential for the dirt car, the net cost was going to be high. Also, those dirt guys only get some hot laps, a 10-12 lap heat race and a 25 lap feature. That's not a lot of track time. And sometimes, the features don't start until midnight (if there have been a lot of cautions in the earlier races).

Most of the dirt racers I know, think the track owners are making money and the racers aren't. I still would like to run a dirt late model in a couple of races, I just don't want to own one.

Bob Clifton
#85 ITB Dodge Daytona

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

These are the responses that I expected. As much as I love the club, people, and the racing, I am slowly getting frustrated with the lack of marketing. It is not expensive to put adds in the newspaper of the local race coming up. Or have a "Fan Appreciation Night" where fans can win track t-shirts, ride a-longs in a racecar during lunch or something. Hyperfest drew ~ 10,000 people this summer. Why? Marketing. All Hypferfest is is a normal NASA weekend, with more boobs and drifting. If we could market maybe one or two races a year, and have a program which includes a season schedule, weekend schedule, getting involved section, and maybe a bio on a few drivers, people will be interested. After I finish my technical part of school, I am taking marketing classes, and I am hoping to increase marketing and awareness of the club.

Steven

P.S. Pro IT is not worth it, the top winner won 2,500 last year, I'm sure I would spend that just getting to the races.

[lateapex911]

Steven, here's the formula.
Rent Lime Rock for a weekend. $60,000.
Now, get yourself a sanctioning body to provide corner workers, stewards, timing and scoring equipment, radio equipment, fire bottles , computers and printers. Or provide that yourself.
Feed all those people.
You'll need insurance. The track won't let your group set a foot on it with out millions in coverage. And you need to be concerned with the drivers too. Roadracers seem to be a crowd that has lawyers as friends, and 'releases" mean little. Oddly oval trackers are much cooler with the safety aspects being more lax. You'll need some tow trucks and flatbeds, and the staff to man them. and an ambulance. Or two, if the track requires that. A pace car and driver. Don't forget the flags for every station. And announcers like to get paid. Some tracks include some of this, some do not.

So, you've laid out a bunch of cash. About 80K when it's added up. (ROUGHLY)

Now, you'll need to raise that money and make a little for your troubles.

You can:
Have a sponsor cover it.
Have Spectators cover it.
Have the drivers cover it.

You'll need some good skills to sell an advertiser on an untelevised event for $80K that plays to a select crowd. So, you'll buy ads in local papers to attract that crowd. Lets say you get 1,000 people. Pretty good crowd, for an event that's largely unknown to many, but, you'll be hard pressed to sell tix for more than oh, say $30, I'd say. So, you've got $30K....which is pretty good. But you're still $50K short. Oh, and you'll need more insurance if there's a crowd. And a staff to control them and park them. Even if you were to somehow sell sponsorship, for $20K, you still need to find $30K.

Driver entry fees might help. 30000/200 is $150.

So, while you aren't paying the drivers, you have reduced the cost to them. But, there's huge liability. You OWE something to the people who gave you money. And they'll want to feel like they got their moneys worth, which, let's face it, is tough for the non aficionado to do at a roadrace track. But the sponsor is the biggest concern. He wants to see his costs covered in profit, or its not a success, so somehow, the exposure, and the people at the event need to add up to $20K. Good luck with keeping HIM happy.

The point of all this is that unlike oval racing, which is much easier for spectators to enjoy, (simple to understand, obvious in its action, and it's all easily visible), roadracing takes a lot more to make it work financially. LOTS of better racers and road races have failed miserably, (financially that is) even though they were marketed, promoted, had stars, fast flashy cars, and were televised.

Look at any of the "Pro" series. How many guys that are drivers are REALLY getting paid? Remember Speed World Challenge? Pierre Kleinubing? The most successful guy year after year? he was making a living, but he didn't get paid by Real Time, according to my sources. ALL his money came from personal sponsorships he sold, and winnings. And he wasn't raking in hundreds of K, either. Those Grand Am ST and GS teams you see on SPEED? One driver is paying in nearly every single car. And I have to guess, because I haven't tried to buy a ride, but those rides range in the $10,000 and up range for a nearly decent ride. The other driver may be getting a day rate, and his travel and expenses taken care of. Or not, maybe he just gets to drive and keep some winnings. Most drivers like that, (lets think Joey Hand) supplement their income in ways like instructing for drivers schools, doing arrive and drive deals, (corporate work) and driver coaching. Take a look at the crowd at the recent Salt Lake City Grand Am ST and GS race.....big deal event, final race of the season, and spectators were few and far between....

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

I agree with everything you said Jake, I know that holding a road race is a large and expensive operation, and I have come to realize that oval racers, for some reason, are not to keen on the safety precautions the track takes. I know that very little drives get PAID in American Road racing, and I have looked into the cost for a Continental Tire ride. I guess road racing just doesn't have the appeal as oval, even though in my book, it really takes more skill and effort to build a competitive car, and drive balls to the wall for 20 laps with other cars, doing more than just turning left.

I have accepted that I wont get paid driving and I dont really care if I do or not, it's my passion and I will always enjoy it. I guess I was just hoping to get a different answer from somebody that I haven't heard yet on why we don't have winnings, but that didn't happen.

Why haven't I seen you at SP? I recognize your car from past seasons but haven't seen it this year.

Steven

[lateapex911]

Good memory! I was down at SP last labor day. Had fun and a pretty successful event. But, it's a long haul from CT. The main reason is that my motor ate an oil seal in June, and the boat with oil and apex seals just arrived from Japan a few days ago. I'm hoping to get the motor running soon.

[JLawton]

In the words of the great tGA:

The difference between NASCAR and SCCA is that in NASCAR the spectators know all the drivers names, in SCCA the drivers know all the spectators names!


I did a year of circle track. Made some money......... SPENT a LOT of money and was burned out after 3/4 of the season trying to make EVERY race. It was a constant flog. Plus those guys are more than willing to destroy their car or your car to win.

[joeg]

...with more boobs

That might work!

[gran racing]

I am slowly getting frustrated with the lack of marketing. It is not expensive to put adds in the newspaper of the local race coming up. Or have a "Fan Appreciation Night" where fans can win track t-shirts, ride a-longs in a racecar during lunch or something.

Marketing - yes, I'd agree that it's an area that needs to be improved upon. What it takes though is for people such as yourself to take an active role, willingness to devote time and energy all while knowing it's a tough uphill battle.

It's also important to know what type of product is wanted. I've been to hyperfest, and won't go back. Some of it was entertaining, much was not. People getting beat with a crow bar, multiple people going to the hospital, several items stolen from the paddock by fans, people being obnoxious and loud all during the night at camp sites, and a whole lot of other BS. My blood boils thinking about it. This was the first and only time I've written a track to complain.

I've also been to the same track during the Labor Day event where I left quite a bit of tools exposed in my paddock spot far away from where I was sleeping without concern. I felt comfortable with my wife and 2 year old son walking away from the camp site during the evening to go to the bathroom, not worried if some stupid idiot would do something to put them in harms way. This is what I want is why I already plan to be down there next year. Becareful of what you wish for.

That does NOT mean SCCA can't attract more fans and hopefully prospective participates. We do need to be careful how we go about this though and who our target market truly should be.

Don't give up Steven.

[StephF]

Steve - This is SCCA CLUB racing. It's been this way for 60 years. It's a stepping stone to SCCA PRO racing. (I'm not trying to come across as snotty, but there is a big difference between the two, both on a national level and a regional level)

Club racing is something fun for the weekend warrior to do. It's a great training ground for those who go on to other series. It's geared towards enthusiasts, and like all worthwhile things, it doesn't come easy or cheap.

While I commend you and anyone looking to help promote the club, please do not try to make it something it is not. It will never be a pro event. And to those who say SCCA is anti-spectator, actually SCCA is more likely to be anti insurance premiums.

Spectator insurance costs a bunch of money. Money on top of rental fees. Unless the racetrack wants to provide it and charge people to get in, the club really can't afford to provide it. Thus the track makes the call about promoting an event, and the bottom line there will be whatever is best for the track and the club can go hang.

Like rules creep, if we start trying to add prize money to the club end of it, you do realize what will happen don't you?

The faster teams will pour even more money into the cars, the rules gurus will pushpushpush to change the rules on the cars even further and before you know it, the average backyard racer won't be able to afford to do diddly squat in a race with the limited budget and prep they can do. You can at least race now with a chance to be competitive. Imagine how that changes when you are up against guys with pro built 20k motors?

Lack of marketing has been a thorn in a lot of people's sides for years. But really, National promotes the pro end of it. The club end is here just for the fun of it. That's not to say we can't promote on our own, or that you can't drum up sponsorship too. There's plenty of free avenues now like Youtube, facebook, twitter, etc where you can promote yourself and maybe end up offsetting the expenses. And if you want to come up with marketing ideas for your region, I am sure you will be welcomed with open arms.

[gran racing]

Steven, did you possibly attend the comp meeting held at this years labor day event? That was an interesting meeting.

One other factor related to hyperfest. NASA = for profit. SCCA = non-profit. Both have positives and negatives.

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

Steven, did you possibly attend the comp meeting held at this years labor day event? That was an interesting meeting.

One other factor related to hyperfest. NASA = for profit. SCCA = non-profit. Both have positives and negatives.

I was in Ohio for school during Labor Day, so I couldn't. I do talk with a few people who sit in/participate in the regions meetings, and I am aware of the financial situation of the club.

Although this is Club racing, and not for profit, what is wrong with attracting people, and maybe raising money? I already race against some of the best prepped IT cars in the country, it really wouldn't make too big of a difference if people started putting money into their cars. Once I get out of college, I'm going to build my car up as much as possible anyways.


Steven

[lateapex911]

.......
Like rules creep, if we start trying to add prize money to the club end of it, you do realize what will happen don't you?

The faster teams will pour even more money into the cars, the rules gurus will pushpushpush to change the rules on the cars even further and before you know it, the average backyard racer won't be able to afford to do diddly squat in a race with the limited budget and prep they can do. You can at least race now with a chance to be competitive. Imagine how that changes when you are up against guys with pro built 20k motors?........

Assuming the amount of money is enough to offset the increased costs, OR, the series has the visibility and attractiveness for other abstract reasons to become popular....

I think the best way for a series to have actual payouts is to tie it in as a support race for other pro events. Having a captive crowd helps sell sponsors, and entry fees can be used to create a winners pool. But the track (in this case, the promoter) isn't likely to kick in a dime to help the costs, as they have groups/organizations lined up at the door wanting to supply their class/cars as a 'support race'.....

[gran racing]

what is wrong with attracting people, and maybe raising money? I already race against some of the best prepped IT cars in the country, it really wouldn't make too big of a difference if people started putting money into their cars. Once I get out of college, I'm going to build my car up as much as possible anyways.

You're talking different things.

Nothing is wrong with attracting people and raising money. You just happened to mention attempting to use cash payouts to do this as the method.

[jumbojimbo]

As has been pointed out we don't own the tracks and we don't control the track side of the cost.

Let's say it costs 60,000 now to rent the track. Let's say you convince a sponsor to give you 20,000.

Take a guess what your track cost will be next year.