Pro IT Race - WGI - July 24-25, 2010

[dj10]

The qual race yesterday was when the record fell. You have to admit, the ITR and ITS records should have a larger differential at that track!

Why? Who knows? Obviously thought something was askew. Hopefully he got what he needed for information. I do not know him (and I hope he ends up posting here) but it's the gentleman in the Supra that runs at the Glen.

All in all it was a great weekend for the car. Wouldn't have been nearly as productive if Nick wasn't driving!

Actually I did the 13.444 & avg. 100.00 mph + on the short course with a weak engine. I do believe there is a lot more to go.

I know of the gentleman in the Surpa.

[hondaman321]

I agree with Andy that flatout builds great cars, I am sure the research that has gone into the car is tremendous. I am not calling anyone out or saying the car is not legal. I am strictly saying its a great car for the class, however it seems that with more wheel time the car will be outstanding and there will be no competition for it. E36's are great and again the only reason they got moved to itr was because of lots of illegal activity years back. It is good however to see ITR growing in the northeast.

[hondaman321]

Also to Dan, I know I come off as an ass always ranting and raving about E36's. But exactly my point you did low 13's with a weak motor. I have worked on and in conjunction with bmw north america and after every possible calculation, even with this excellent suspension knowledge everyone tells me you have, to get to those numbers is a far cry without a built motor or again something is wrong with the rules.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I agree with Andy that flatout builds great cars, I am sure the research that has gone into the car is tremendous. I am not calling anyone out or saying the car is not legal. I am strictly saying its a great car for the class, however it seems that with more wheel time the car will be outstanding and there will be no competition for it. E36's are great and again the only reason they got moved to itr was because of lots of illegal activity years back. It is good however to see ITR growing in the northeast.

Please - I hope I never made it sound like you thought it was illegal. No issues there.

I have to 100% disagree with you that the S2000 is an overdog...FAR from it really. And the reason the E36 got moved (it's actually dual-classed) has nothing to do with illegal cars. If you run the math, you will actually see that the E36 is VERY conservatively classed - almost to a fault IMHO. 205whp gets you to the target weight. Think about that and apply what you know about these motors in legal IT trim.

[hondaman321]

no you did not make it seem illegal, i was just stating that I was not inferring that. I do agree that the e36 is very competitive when built to the max, just that if you look very closely at it in its fully built(legal) configuration it is going to be very hard to be competitive with some other ITR cars.

[tnord]

no you did not make it seem illegal, i was just stating that I was not inferring that. I do agree that the e36 is very competitive when built to the max, just that if you look very closely at it in its fully built(legal) configuration it is going to be very hard to be competitive with some other ITR cars.

what in the world makes you think that?

if i was building, and made the decision purely based on what i thought gave me the best opportunity to WIN, it would be some BMW variation. no question.

[Andy Bettencourt]

no you did not make it seem illegal, i was just stating that I was not inferring that. I do agree that the e36 is very competitive when built to the max, just that if you look very closely at it in its fully built(legal) configuration it is going to be very hard to be competitive with some other ITR cars.

Couple requests. 1. Who are you? 2. Run some numbers for us here. What ITR cars would be better and why? What are you using to base that off of? Help us know what you are talking about.

[dj10]

Also to Dan, I know I come off as an ass always ranting and raving about E36's. But exactly my point you did low 13's with a weak motor. I have worked on and in conjunction with bmw north america and after every possible calculation, even with this excellent suspension knowledge everyone tells me you have, to get to those numbers is a far cry without a built motor or again something is wrong with the rules.

I wished we could meet face to face so we could talk rationally about these issues. You coming out and calling me or every other e36 driver a cheater doesn't help your image, whether you care or not that's another question. Remember I was torn down at last years ARRC and I was legal. I'll be at Mid Ohio next weekend if the cars tests ok tomorrow. If your around please stop in.

[benspeed]

Great racing this weekend - VERY competitive field. Once I get the final results I'll do a ProIT story. We didn't stick around because of the rain - it was pouring right after the ProIT. I felt bad for the SRF guys - they looked soaked down big time, helmets all fogged up.

Marc C - you should throw your video link over here too - that was some great Pro IT footage. Trying to convert my video into something that will run on the web.

[gran racing]

Ben, weren't you grouped with ITA? That was a dry race and beautiful outside.

[jcmotorsports]

It is...totally stock. The way weights are calculated is based on estimated hp in IT prep. The numbers for an E36 325 are well known. Sqeezing more out of a NA 2L that already produces 120hp/liter is going to be slim pickin's. Process power for one of these is about 226whp or 276ish crank hp. Many doubt it's there.

215whp is a very reasonable and achievable number for the E36's - and they weigh 220 lbs less with a torque advanage. On paper, I see the BMW still as the best car in ITR...and I stick to my favorite - an E46 325 Coupe. Love that car. We chose this car because it WASN'T a BMW, WASN'T a Mazda and we were used to higher revving, excellent-handling type cars. Plus it's got the VTEC Yo! LOL.

Edit: We fully understand a preliminary outing like this will raise some eyebrows about the potential of the car...but you have to see it to believe it. You also have to understand all the research we did on equipment and set-up before just bolting stuff on. The S2000 community is quite large and there are a ton of these things being raced. Not many with open springs and bars in the SCCA, but with NASA you bet. It's a VERY solid effort. We are already in the 'tweaking' stage. Maybe someone can dig up some posts on when this car got classed at 3005lbs in ITR. I don't remember many thinking it was even a legit choice for the class at that weight. Either way, it's an effing cool car and Steve is going to love it. Hell,we already do!!!

OK I'll throw my two cents in as a driver of a T3 S2000. These cars are TOTAL momentum cars. Flatout's car is a top notch build and the car performs well with a great driver. Just for comparison, I turned a 2:14.1 in qualifying in the October(Last Chance)regional at the Glen and backed it up in the race with a 2:14.401 during the race in a T3(fully built with no expenses spared) car. The ITR record should be at least in the twelves! So those that think the S2000 is an overdog are very mistaken.

[hondaman321]

Well if ITR should be in the 12's then alot of people are in trouble and have no chance of winning. Again as I said before back in 06-07 or around there top prepped e36's ran around high 14's or low 15's and since then times have dropped. These are the same cars that are classed in itr now. So if an ITR s2000 should run twelve's that proves my point that it is not classed correctly.

[benspeed]

OK - here's the race up until I dive bomb the gravel trap. Didn't even TRY to get out. It ended up looking like a used car lot - 4 folks stuck and at least another 3-4 who visited the beach but were able to leave.

I'm glad I got to say, "sorry" to Tyler for tapping him - no damage to either car. Marc C. get's the gold for best start.

Tidbits - I heard Rob Nimkoff was able to finish but had bad damage. Marc C lost clutch hydraulics and had to retire. My son said the bus stop was a spin fest once it started raining. I saw Miatas blowing past ITR/ITS cars once the rain came down. John Stewart was parked in the beach with me for awhile and a Miata pounded his trapped car in the rear bumper pretty good - John was not happy at all...

Hoping to get the official results. Ran a 2:14.4 on the in-car timer and wonder where that stands up to the other times.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/7960563/21083482

[jcmotorsports]

I didn't say an ITR S2000. I said an ITR car. ITS cars run in the 14's shouldn't ITR be at least 2 sec faster? I really don't think that the S2000 can go that much faster than what Nick did at that weight. I feel the BMW's have more in them and we will see that now that the gauntlet has been laid down.

[hondaman321]

sorry about that thought you had been referring to the s2000, again though as I said how can you expect ITR 36's to be in the 12's if when they had been classified as ITS they did not reach that and nothing has changed in the car since those days.ITR and ITS e36's are almost identical again it was because so much cheating years ago and all the e36's winning.

[jcmotorsports]

Remember the E36 was restricted in ITS around 2006/2007. In ITR it is unrestricted and if I am not mistaken it also has more tire in ITR.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Well if ITR should be in the 12's then alot of people are in trouble and have no chance of winning. Again as I said before back in 06-07 or around there top prepped e36's ran around high 14's or low 15's and since then times have dropped. These are the same cars that are classed in itr now. So if an ITR s2000 should run twelve's that proves my point that it is not classed correctly.

Tough talk time here. Beware.

The ITS record is a 2:14.1. Has been since July of 2005. Logically, ITR should be faster, no?

Dan is FULLY where he is supposed to be with a soft motor. You haven't answered my question about producing numbers and supporting your assertion it is missclassed. All you have done is suggested that just because some guys didn't do it 'then', actually means something. Who was it? What is top prep? The Autotechnic guys are running low 2:14's in 323's at 3000lbs. You have suggested Dan is illegal (don't believe it)...how about these top 323's?

You need some more than that. Oh ya, can you let us know your name?

'A lot of people' will need pro motors and a continued focus on driving and top prep to compete in ITR now in the NE. Doc Bro, Ben P., Nimkoff, Thiele, Fox, etc are really making this a great class. The more popular it is, the higher the prep level that will be required to win. What times would Driscoll be running if he dropped a 325 or 328 motor in his car? Yikes! A great class that just had it's ante raised...and it is gonna rock.

[hondaman321]

x

[hondaman321]

Andy you make great points. I guess the bar being raised is a good thing and it will keep things competitive. If the autotechnik guys went to ITR, what is the weight difference from the current class. Breualt and Nimkoff along with ben are really putting on a show out there in ITR and i am sure your s2000 will add to the mix. top 323's should be running with the top e36's, I do not know much about the e46 or s2000 or porsche 968, just that the e36 seemed to get the bad end of the stick. But you make a very good point
Ben

[Andy Bettencourt]

top 323's should be running with the top e36's

Why do you say this? The E36 weighs 215lbs less, has more tire and more HP. I can't fathom the reasoning.

As to the rest, ITR is a huge guess for us all. That is one of the great things about this class IMHO. You want a real treat? Lets have Kip VS come up here in his 944S2. Just because we haven't seen it yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Nothing I have seen has shown me that the top dog on paper is anything but the E36. The rest of us are using that as a bogey.