Door Opening "X" Bars as Side Protection

[spnkzss]

thanks Rob. so something more like this?

PS - this has been a very helpful discussion for me at least. Thanks everyone.

That's better, I would just have to go back and reread the rule about door bars attaching to the rear hoop. That should meet legality, but I know it's better than the picture previously.

[JIgou]

Having removed a package shelf-mounted cage from a Miata, I can attest to the fact that there's a whole bunch of metal in that area.

[magnetic1]

Hopefully Richie will end up posting some pictures so we can learn from this.

A big factor also is how the X is tied into the rest of the cage.

I really wanna put in some of that Impaxx foam, but it is $$$!

[lateapex911]

Trav, if there's footspace, maybe adding some triangulation might help direct and distribute forces like:

[tnord]

there's probably not.

i guess i could take out my dead pedal and just use that bar you suggested as a resting place? i might have to talk to my cage builder about that.

[spnkzss]

Trav, if there's footspace, maybe adding some triangulation might help direct and distribute forces like:

I find that statement interesting. Technically is it legal?


9.4.C.3 Cars competing in Improved Touring, Showroom Stock, Spec Miata, and Touring may extend one tube, from each front down tube, forward to the firewall but not penetrating the firewall.

Now I agree that is nit picking and should be allowed, but is it?

[Speed Raycer]

Trav, if there's footspace, maybe adding some triangulation might help direct and distribute forces like:

Read the new rules on the firewall tubes? The new wording limits us to one tube. Something along the lines of may add one tube connecting the cage to the firewall. Some read it as only one tube, others read it as only 1 tube can connect to the firewall and other tubes are allowed as long as they don't connect to the firewall. IMO, goofy wording with a slight change from the AS rules right above it.

Spanky types faster than I do!

[tnord]

fixed.

[eprodrx7]

From watching the video I would have to say that this is the definition of "target fixation". Meaning that the driver was looking at the spinning car and not the clear road behind Richie's car. You can hear the driver getting out of the gas at the apex of the corner so he is aware of the trouble ahead but the mistake is that he let his instinctual action of looking at the spinning car prevent him from seeing the clear road to the left. So at reduced speed he drives off line toward the spinning car. The car will always go where you are looking. That's why the cars at the junk yard all have the telephone pole dead center on the hood ornament, That is what the driver was looking at. I applaud the driver for being aware as early as he was. In all the time that I have spent instructing, overcoming instinct is the hardest thing to do. I'm glad that everyone is OK and I think that as a cage builder and driver I have learned from the incident. It is a shame that it came at such expense.

[RexRacer19]

Read the new rules on the firewall tubes? The new wording limits us to one tube. Something along the lines of may add one tube connecting the cage to the firewall. Some read it as only one tube, others read it as only 1 tube can connect to the firewall and other tubes are allowed as long as they don't connect to the firewall. IMO, goofy wording with a slight change from the AS rules right above it.

Spanky types faster than I do!

Yes, it says only one tube...but gussets are allowed and encouraged. Gussets can be tubes.

[spnkzss]

Yes, it says only one tube...but gussets are allowed and encouraged. Gussets can be tubes.

Appendix B.

Gusset - A brace generally formed by attaching, by welding, a plate at or near the junction of two structural beams or tubes, providing reinforcement
particularly in the plane including the tubes and the plate.

I guess the loop hole is generally?

[lateapex911]

Forgive me, as my GCR is in the shop, but isn't there a rule allowing tubes of other dimensions within the required tubes?

[tnord]

Forgive me, as my GCR is in the shop, but isn't there a rule allowing tubes of other dimensions within the required tubes?

i dunno....sounds light Twilight Zone shit to me.

[JoshS]

Forgive me, as my GCR is in the shop, but isn't there a rule allowing tubes of other dimensions within the required tubes?

Yes:

G.6. Any number of additional tube elements is permitted within the boundaries of the minimum cage structure. Such tube elements may pass through any mandatory or optional bulkhead or panel separating the driver/passenger compartment from the trunk/cargo area/fuel tank/fuel cell area provided the bulkhead is sealed around such tube elements.

Related, in the previous major section:

F.3. The required tubing elements must meet the material minimums
set forth above. Optional tubing elements may be any size.

Also note item 5:

G.5. It is recommended that gussets be used at all joints. In Improved Touring, Showroom Stock, and Spec Miata a maximum of two gussets per joint are allowed and must be no thicker than .125”.

Seems like a lot of people here are recommending an X bar with four gussets. I don't think that would be legal.

[lateapex911]

That seems like there is considerable "room" to do a lot, as long as the attachment point rules are honored.

I'd say that an extra bar as shown in my little quick drawing would be fine, although I'd attach it to the tubes at either end to minimize debates.

[Speed Raycer]

Seems like a lot of people here are recommending an X bar with four gussets. I don't think that would be legal.

There are 2 joints in the traditional 3 bar X. You get 2 gussets per joint

[CRallo]

From watching the video I would have to say that this is the definition of "target fixation". Meaning that the driver was looking at the spinning car and not the clear road behind Richie's car. You can hear the driver getting out of the gas at the apex of the corner so he is aware of the trouble ahead but the mistake is that he let his instinctual action of looking at the spinning car prevent him from seeing the clear road to the left. So at reduced speed he drives off line toward the spinning car. The car will always go where you are looking. That's why the cars at the junk yard all have the telephone pole dead center on the hood ornament, That is what the driver was looking at. I applaud the driver for being aware as early as he was. In all the time that I have spent instructing, overcoming instinct is the hardest thing to do. I'm glad that everyone is OK and I think that as a cage builder and driver I have learned from the incident. It is a shame that it came at such expense.

based on initial reports I believed that had indeed been the issue...

after seeing the video it is VERY CLEAR that is not the case. Justin drove offline AWAY from the spinning car and the car came to him... when the spin began there was no clear road to the left and while (most likely)locked up the spun car was still moving down the track. it was not until the last second that the spun car came across the track. I respect the credit that you gave the driver but I don't think you are giving him enough... You obviously are very experienced and knowledgeable but I ask that you watch the video a couple more times. A more experienced driver may have seen the spinning car change direction sooner or better been able to anticipate it but I believe that Justin did as well as anyone could expect avoiding the spinning car.

[rsportvolvo]

Has anyone looked into mounting the seat to the roll cage? This is required for FIA roll cages in the WTCC. The best way to describe it is in this picture

http://polestarclub.iweb.se/archive/...n_1024_768.jpg

This is an illustration of the Prodrive designed roll cage for the ETCC/WTCC/STCC Volvo S60. See how the seat is attached to 2 tubes mounted laterally to a longitudinal rocker panel tube. Also note the vertical tube connecting the rocker tube to the x-brace intersection.

I believe the design intent is to created a complete tubing safety cage that the driver is enclosed in. This is the design approach I would prefer to take vs. assuming the floor pan is stiff enough to protect me. Not to mention the driver's seat will most likely shift with the side entry protection bars.

[Greg Amy]

Has anyone looked into mounting the seat to the roll cage?

Unfortunately, it is contrary to the IT regulations (i.e., "mounting points").

GA

[rsportvolvo]

Unfortunately, it is contrary to the IT regulations (i.e., "mounting points").

GA

So is having more than 2 gussets per joint. That doesn't mean it's in the best interest of the driver's safety. It seems that keeping costs low takes precidence over safety in the Showroom Stock based classes. Not sure how a few extra tubes and some sheet metal gussets significantly increase cost? But I digress. The regulations are the rules we have to live by until changes are deemed necessary.