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Thread: Door Opening "X" Bars as Side Protection

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  1. #1
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    Default Door Opening "X" Bars as Side Protection

    I know we've hashed this out here in the past; I tried to find the relevant topics but could not. However, we had one hell of a troubling incident this weekend that I wanted to relate, and to caution.

    At yesterday's NARRC Runoffs at LRP, ITA Integra driver Richie Hunter spun in West Bend, a very fast sweeper corner leading up to the bridge. He stopped driver's right (normal line is driver's left), with the passenger side of the car facing oncoming traffic and the two front wheels in the grass. As he sat there, perpendicular to the traffic, two or more cars passed by safely before another car t-boned him directly in the middle of the passenger door.

    For reference, most fast ITA cars are going about 80-85 through that section.

    The damage was sobering. Richie managed to drive the drive the car back into the pits, but you could hear a pin drop except for the mass sharp inhales and "oh my gods" and "holy shits" as he drove by: his passenger door was COMPLETELY driven into the car, bent in half, and up against the exhaust tunnel and his right arm. A casual observer would note the right door was simply missing altogether.

    Richie's OK; he got his bell rung good, and he said he was momentarily knocked unconscious (I think he was just knocked silly, but it's really hard to tell with him anyway...) He also complained of right arm pain, but he's been checked out and I personally saw him as we were packing up and he looks fine.

    But post-race we all got a good look at the car. As described the door was completely destroyed, hammered well into the car. The passenger-side rollcage/intrusion protection had completely failed.

    Richie had the venerable "X" bar on the passenger side, one diagonal tube, with two other tubes welded to that to make an "X". That structure failed. Your first thought is probably that the welds failed, but you would be wrong: all welds seemed to hold. The primarily structural failure was on the first main diagonal bar, which simple tore apart at its center in tension. Then, the two triangular "halves" of the X-bar system hinged inwards where they were welded to the main the front hoops, tearing the two tubes partially off. To imagine this, think of the old Western saloon doors that swing to each side; the X-bar tube separated in the center, then allowed the other car to penetrate in the middle, tearing each half at the vertical tubes they were attached to. The door then came off of its hinges and latches, bending as it penetrated through the "swinging door".

    The forces of the crash were so hard that the main hoop, front legs, and main plane diagonal bar were bent as well.

    And lest you think this was some big heavy car, it was a Miata, I believe a SMMAITAC. So, what, 2380#...?

    Similarly to my Watkins Glen incident two weeks ago, the Miata punched right through the center of the door, almost leaving the rocker panel completely intact. Because of the design of the nose of the Miata and the significant lowering one can do with an Integra, the main side structure of the car, the rocker panel, was ineffective at providing crash protection.

    I bring up this subject as a point of interest for current and future builds. I've been a proponent of the X-bar system in the past, as I believe a well-built one can work. However, this incident was sobering. Richie has the "standard" multi-tubes-with-verticals-NASCAR-bars on the driver's side, but for that and 180 degrees of rotation I firmly believe Richie would not be alive today. I certainly could not see a passenger surviving a crash like this on the street: there was just no place for a breathing human to be.

    From this I take three main points.

    First, the basic x-bar system by itself may not be adequate. Since there is only one whole diagonal bar in that design the tensile forces are only resisted by one tube. I would recommend one of two directions if you pursue the X-bar: either bend two tubes in "U" shape and weld them together at the center, or weld plates completely across the intersection to increase the cross-sectional area of the main point of tension. Or both. I've linked a (poor) photo of our Integra from the Watkins Glen wreck to demonstrate what I mean.

    Second, creating a single-plane x-bar is probably not a good idea. This x-bar is subjected to bending and tensile forces; tubing works better in compression. If this x-bar had extended outwards in a "pup tent" type of fashion into the door, it may have withstood the punching forces better.

    Third, we need to give serious consideration to design based on who we race with. As noted, the only thing between Richie and the nose of that Miata was his factory door and his rollcage x-bar. The 'Teg's rocker panel was nothing more than a footnote in that crash, as the Miata with its shark nose drove up and over it.

    Finally (yes, I know this is four), there was door glass everywhere inside that car. Richie got showered by it. I am a clear proponent now of recommending - possibly requiring - removal of door glass. Fortunately, Richie was wearing a face shield with eye protection.

    We have no photos, at Richie's request. But I hope I've described this satisfactorily to you. This si something we need to hash over; while I hope no one is subjected to this in the past, we need to prepare for it.

    Greg

    Last edited by Greg Amy; 09-28-2008 at 11:26 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default

    By your description of the force of impact, it sounds like the cage did a good job of absorbing the energy. Is there really a design that's practical in weight and material cost that can withstand any possible impact ? And how should it look after an incredible impact ? I wouldn't expect it to look like it did before the accident.

    The bending and breaking is absorbing energy that would otherwise transfer to the driver. Had the bar broke upon a 20 mph impact, I would look to see if inferior materials were used. But at 80 mph, what would you expect ?

    The design you show does appear to be a stronger way to make an X. I'm sure that at an 80 mph direct impact there would be some failure somewhere in that construction too.
    Mike Guenther
    ITR #11
    http://www.improvedtouring.com

  3. #3
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    my car had seen it's share of impacts, a couple pretty solid side ones as well.

    it's not just miatas that impact much higher than the rocker panel, a VW got into my drivers door once, completely destroyed the door, got into the door bar, but left the rocker panel untouched.

    as i get ready to possibly build another car, i'll be real interested in where this discussion goes. i'm no structural expert by any means, but isn't it a "rule" that the bigger the bend you put in a bar, the weaker it becomes at the point of the bend since you have to stretch/thin the metal to make the larger outside radius? with that in mind, the x-bar pictured above looks like a pretty big bend relative to the traditional nascar bars. the plates welded at the intersection counter this, as the bars are pushed inward the stress is placed upon 4 whole rows of welds, but is it enough? either way, i see the quality of the welds and material used in those plates to be the key to safety in that design.

    travis
    -who had a "traditional" x-bar on the passenger side, but nascar bar on the drivers side.
    Travis Nordwald
    1996 ITA Miata
    KC Region

  4. #4
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    Greg, I was in T&S when Hunter’s car drove down pit lane. We were all laughing at the hay bail stuck to the front of the car, and then the air left the room as we realized the car was caved in and the door was against the driver. In a room full of jolly ladies, there were certainly a lot of holy shits going around.

    I am glad to hear he is OK. I have always thought the glass in the door was a dumb idea. I have the X bar you describe with the three pieces. I had planned on added a diagonal across the roof and gussets elsewhere this winter. I will add an upgrade to the x bar also.

    Good topic.
    Chris Raffaelli
    NER 24FP

  5. #5
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    The thought of the passenger side collapsing is interesting, but we would never want this to happen on the drivers side... I am now thinking about what I should do to upgrade my drivers side bars...

    Raymond
    RST Performance Racing
    www.rstperformance.com

  6. #6
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    My biggest fear has always been getting T-boned, mainly only the driver side, since I always thought I had crush space on the passenger side but from this example its pretty obvious thats not enough space.



    My cage has the standard X plus a horizontal bar at the bottom, but as you mentioned due to the height of the miata the horizontal bar wouldn't have done anything. If I had a vertical bar on each side of the X, say about a foot from the center on either side, with taco gussets, how effective do you think that would be in a situation such as this? I think it would be fairly efficient because you would have two continuous bars(horizontal and one of the x bars) plus the two half bars of the x all having to bend in unison.

    red = bars, blue = gussets


  7. #7
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    This is one of the three dimensional x braces that I did. It was then gusseted. It seems like what Greg was talking about.
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  8. #8
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    Sandro has excellent photos that basically shows typical configurations of both the nascar and the x style.

    i have the nascar type on both sides and i think they go deeper into the door than Sandro is showing but that may just be perspective. mine go right up to the reinforcing bar in the door and you have to give a good slam to latch the door. i do not have as many cross braces as Sandro is showing. that looks quite well done.

    with regards to the more bends, i think you need to look at how the hit takes place and what happens. i am not a structural engineer either but i know if if i put a 2x10 on its side, and i walk over it, it will bend a lot. if i put it on edge and walk on it, there is no deflection noticed.

    when we bend a bar into the door, there is a lot of compressive forces that come into play when it is hit, for the x-bar, there is lot more tension forces taking place. i think the bent bars spread the force into the rest of the cage/hoop as well.

    and for the extreme example, how much force would it take to "ben" a 1.5" bar that is 36" long when laying on its side vs. to compress it from its end?

    now i will freely admit that i have no idea which is better at dissipating the force of impact to lessen the g's felt by the driver. Sandro's cage may be the best of both worlds. give up energy in all the space you can on the passenger side cause you can give up the space and lessen the g's felt by the driver. and where space is a major premium, you need the prevent intrusion on the driver side and know that you will feel more g's in the impact.

    greg, thanks for a detailed description of what happened and let us know he was alright.
    1985 CRX Si competed in Solo II: AS, CS, DS, GS
    1986 CRX Si competed in: SCCA Solo II CSP, SCCA ITA, SCCA ITB, NASA H5
    1988 CRX Si competed in ITA & STL

  9. #9
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    Thumbs up

    Perhaps a 16ga. cover welded to the complete permiter of the door bars to act as onr giant gusset ala NASCAR would help. It would add a lot ostrength to that area.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    At yesterday's NARRC Runoffs at LRP, ITA Integra driver Richie Hunter spun in West Bend, a very fast sweeper corner leading up to the bridge. He stopped driver's right (normal line is driver's left), with the passenger side of the car facing oncoming traffic and the two front wheels in the grass. As he sat there, perpendicular to the traffic, two or more cars passed by safely before another car t-boned him directly in the middle of the passenger door.
    Not quite as described here...Hunter was still moving and was not off course during impact...only one car got by - and that was BARELY...but the video is proof of the intensity of the hit.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDpUjcQe92c[/ame]
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

  11. #11
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    What happened to the video?
    Jeremy Billiel

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    Wow. Don't blink.

    K

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    In all fairness to the Mee-Otter, I don't know that I would have done any better...yes, that hurt to write, but I'll be OK...

  14. #14
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    It looked like he had time to slow way down, so the impact was less than 50mph even.
    Too bad he tried to follow the first car through instead of heading for where the spinning car had been.
    IMO this certainly proves the gross inadequacy of the simple X door bar design!
    Last edited by Racer Chris; 09-30-2008 at 02:29 PM. Reason: typed wrong word by accident
    Chris Foley
    Tangerine Racing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Chris View Post
    IMO this certainly proves the gross inadequacy of the single X door bar design! When built in a single plane without any gussets added.
    I had to add to that statement. As Greg stated earlier, the tubes will be put in tension if the X is formed in a single plane. They can be designed and built better. For the passenger side of the car, I honestly don't think it needs to be bomb proof. There is a lot of room between that door and the driver. If you have to add ballast to make weight...it is a good place to put it though...

    After looking at that video, one has to ask. If that hit were on the driver's side, and let's say the side impact protection was two complete "parallel" bars with maybe three vertical stringers tying them together, would the driver have come out unhurt?

  16. #16
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    Racin deal. Zigged when he should have zagged.
    Steve Linn | Fins Up Racing | #6 ITA Sentra SE-R | www.indyscca.org

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Billiel View Post
    What happened to the video?
    Works fine for me.
    Tim Rogers - Atlanta, GA
    ITA NX2000
    I bought GregA's car
    But I stole his avatar

  18. #18
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    Hopefully Richie will end up posting some pictures so we can learn from this.

    A big factor also is how the X is tied into the rest of the cage.

    I really wanna put in some of that Impaxx foam, but it is $$$!


  19. #19
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    From watching the video I would have to say that this is the definition of "target fixation". Meaning that the driver was looking at the spinning car and not the clear road behind Richie's car. You can hear the driver getting out of the gas at the apex of the corner so he is aware of the trouble ahead but the mistake is that he let his instinctual action of looking at the spinning car prevent him from seeing the clear road to the left. So at reduced speed he drives off line toward the spinning car. The car will always go where you are looking. That's why the cars at the junk yard all have the telephone pole dead center on the hood ornament, That is what the driver was looking at. I applaud the driver for being aware as early as he was. In all the time that I have spent instructing, overcoming instinct is the hardest thing to do. I'm glad that everyone is OK and I think that as a cage builder and driver I have learned from the incident. It is a shame that it came at such expense.
    John Weisberg
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by eprodrx7 View Post
    From watching the video I would have to say that this is the definition of "target fixation". Meaning that the driver was looking at the spinning car and not the clear road behind Richie's car. You can hear the driver getting out of the gas at the apex of the corner so he is aware of the trouble ahead but the mistake is that he let his instinctual action of looking at the spinning car prevent him from seeing the clear road to the left. So at reduced speed he drives off line toward the spinning car. The car will always go where you are looking. That's why the cars at the junk yard all have the telephone pole dead center on the hood ornament, That is what the driver was looking at. I applaud the driver for being aware as early as he was. In all the time that I have spent instructing, overcoming instinct is the hardest thing to do. I'm glad that everyone is OK and I think that as a cage builder and driver I have learned from the incident. It is a shame that it came at such expense.
    based on initial reports I believed that had indeed been the issue...

    after seeing the video it is VERY CLEAR that is not the case. Justin drove offline AWAY from the spinning car and the car came to him... when the spin began there was no clear road to the left and while (most likely)locked up the spun car was still moving down the track. it was not until the last second that the spun car came across the track. I respect the credit that you gave the driver but I don't think you are giving him enough... You obviously are very experienced and knowledgeable but I ask that you watch the video a couple more times. A more experienced driver may have seen the spinning car change direction sooner or better been able to anticipate it but I believe that Justin did as well as anyone could expect avoiding the spinning car.
    Chris Rallo "the kid"
    -- "wrenching and racing" -- "will race for food!" -- "Onward and Upward"

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