A Poll Regarding the IT Rules Set

[RSI]

from my own story.

I have a car that I am having a hard time making weight legally.

Here is where we currently sit.
Take the car COMPLETELY apart to bare shell, bead blast to remove ALL sound deadening, then reinstall and still we would need to purchase aluminum shocks, and step up to all the LIGHTEST parts.

LIGHTEST means $$$$ I'm already 8k into this ITS build..which is fine, but for me to get to weight I need to spend another 4k on the lightest parts.

That's where we currently sit.
Or we could remove horns, hvac, all bottles, etc. Window regulators...which BTW I never understood why we HAVE to run glass.

Sure weight is an issue and the cost of going to plexi...but the idea of getting hit with lots of crackling glass is a little frightening.

Based on what has been discussed in the V2.0 process thread, someone stated that the point of IT was the have purpose built race cars, but from cars you would buy on the showroom floor. It was also said by an ITAC member that these cars are SUPPOSED to be trailers to each event.

So why all the dual purpose stuff?

Always seems confusing as to why I need horns on a race track and why when we are trying to keep $$$ down we get into having to spend $$$$ on lightweight parts but cannot remove more STOCK items.

Sorry if the above comes of frustrated...I just have a regular competitor in ITB that is making the jump to H-Production because he didnt read the rules and now he has to ADD all those items back into his car....so now he's out recruiting people to stop running in IT and run in Production...

I just kinda frustrated that my class of 8-9 ITB cars is now in the 3-4 whereas h-production is now 7-8.

[tom91ita]

...........Or we could remove horns, hvac, all bottles, etc. Window regulators...which BTW I never understood why we HAVE to run glass.

...................

Always seems confusing as to why I need horns on a race track and why when we are trying to keep $$$ down we get into having to spend $$$$ on lightweight parts but cannot remove more STOCK items.................

why can't you remove your window regulators? what glass are you referring to that we have to run? windshield and rear windows?

sorry, but i don't know what car you are building.

and on the subject of horns, since we have to have them, is it socially acceptable to use it during the race when overtaking?

[RSI]

Tom,
As for window regulators, the rule stating that if it doesnt say you can then you cant....I cannot remove window regulators or mechanisms or rear door glass etc.

At least that's based on the last 6-7 readings of the GCR.
Jonathan

[seckerich]

Be careful what you wish for, you will get it. Washer bottle, heater core no big deal. Most are just an empty piece of copper anyway. Start going past that and removing lights and you do get to production or ST. Now my Mazda needs that one piece hood to replace the lights. Now you need a $600 lexan windshield with the mandated inside supports for another $100 and it is so scratched you can no longer see. Let alone put wipers on for rain. A small vocal few would F**k up a football given enough posts. Some of you are too stupid to realize what you have and where you would take IT. Guess that is a no vote . Sorry, I suck at politically correct tonight.

[Ron Earp]

Some of you are too stupid to realize what you have .

Ouch. At least I know where I stand now.

Windshields and glass rules weren't an option for removal in this particular poll, at least as I defined it in the beginning.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The point Ron is that you are drawing a new line in the sand. That line won't be far enough for someone after your line is the 'new' line. You can say 'just stop at my line'. Well maybe that is what should be done for your line.

Still waiting to hear a 'why'.

[playing devil's advocate]

[seckerich]

Ouch. At least I know where I stand now.

Windshields and glass rules weren't an option for removal in this particular poll, at least as I defined it in the beginning.

You are missing the point Ron. You are relatively new to this and have not witnessed the destruction of classes with well intentioned changes. A class evolves slowly with little changes that are "for the good" of the class. Then somehow another group wants more and the changes go into overdrive. Example:

Open ECU
Going National
Another new process when most are unsure of process V1
Then just a few posts up we get no dash,lights,windows, etc.


Get the picture, everone likes IT then procedes to F it up with too much change and it is no longer IT. You guys just started ITR which was a big deal in a "no new classes" SCCA, and now you want to just drive what was built off a cliff.

The washer bottle is more symbolic than substance in that it has always been that line in the sand. You have known me long enough to know that was not personal towards you, but more of a general statement.

PS. Missed you wusses in the rain today at Barber.:026:

[dickita15]

I still have not voted on this one as it has been running around in my head now for a couple of days. As someone who races an older car and a car that does not easily make weight the idea of throwing away some parts like headlight motors sounds good but the reason we have to keep them is not because the rule book say so it is because of a basic principal of IT. If it does not say you can then you cannot.
If your thought is to have a rule that says you can remove parts that are not required in order to build and race your car then this puts that principal in jeopardy.
This leaves you with the only option of itemizing what part are superfluous and I agree that we will not agree where to draw the line.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I should post this in every forum: There is NO NEW PROCESS. When Krik refers to V.2, he just means us re-writing what was already there in a much more concrete fashion making every effort to insert definitions and eliminate subjectivity. Other than the FWD adder going from a fixed number to a percentage, there are no major changes.

[Ron Earp]

This leaves you with the only option of itemizing what part are superfluous and I agree that we will not agree where to draw the line.

Sure, not everyone will agree exactly. But we might be able to compromise and come closer to what folks wish than we currently are. As seen here on this thread a couple of members went for items I didn't list - glass and horns. But I imagine if the membership were allowed to remove the other items they'd be happy, that is, the subset that wants to remove superfluous non-race car bits would be happy.

In the past I've heard arguments against removing some of the items listed. They are typically along the lines of "we can't stop there", "it'll be the tip of the iceberg", and "it is the core of IT". I question that line of reasoning. They mean to say that we can't make a rule that says "washer bottles and heater cores my be removed from IT cars" and fashion the rule so that is all that gets removed? That rule, that simple statement and allowance for removing two items on an IT car is going to destroy IT? Or,maybe that rule change not in itself is going to destroy IT but it is going to lead to the downfall of IT? Hmmm.

We race in a class that allows open ECUs, sectioning of strut housings, any shocks/struts, spherical bearings, and other expensive race parts but we have to keep the stock washer bottle and heater core. The scientist in me doesn't agree with a rules set with this non-congruence.

[Bill Miller]

You are missing the point Ron. You are relatively new to this and have not witnessed the destruction of classes with well intentioned changes. A class evolves slowly with little changes that are "for the good" of the class. Then somehow another group wants more and the changes go into overdrive. Example:

Open ECU
Going National
Another new process when most are unsure of process V1
Then just a few posts up we get no dash,lights,windows, etc.


Get the picture, everone likes IT then procedes to F it up with too much change and it is no longer IT. You guys just started ITR which was a big deal in a "no new classes" SCCA, and now you want to just drive what was built off a cliff.

The washer bottle is more symbolic than substance in that it has always been that line in the sand. You have known me long enough to know that was not personal towards you, but more of a general statement.

PS. Missed you wusses in the rain today at Barber.:026:

Steve,

I'm going to throw the BS flag on that one. You know, as well as pretty much everyone else here, that the 'no new classes' thing refers to National classes (unless of course, the PtB want one). Topeka could pretty much care less what's done at the Regional level. Trotting that out, is a TOTAL red herring, and is really pretty weak.

I haven't voted in this poll, but if the ECU situation is any indication how things will go, I'm REALLY not comfortable w/ throwing all that other stuff out. To me, the ECU rule is a textbook example of how to dork it up.

[seckerich]

Steve,

I'm going to throw the BS flag on that one. You know, as well as pretty much everyone else here, that the 'no new classes' thing refers to National classes (unless of course, the PtB want one). Topeka could pretty much care less what's done at the Regional level. Trotting that out, is a TOTAL red herring, and is really pretty weak.

I haven't voted in this poll, but if the ECU situation is any indication how things will go, I'm REALLY not comfortable w/ throwing all that other stuff out. To me, the ECU rule is a textbook example of how to dork it up.

Not really Bill. They let regions add region only classes but not additions to regional classes in the GCR nation wide. Big difference. My view is that we have changed a lot in the past few years for the better. The CRB has been more open to IT changes than I ever remember. I see this particular wish list as wasted clout and the kind of silly crap that will get everything else the ITAC does shot down. Now stuff that actually matters to the catagory as a whole does not get done. I think Bowie summed it up with his response--Just Stop screwing with a good thing.

[lateapex911]

from my own story.

I have a car that I am having a hard time making weight legally.

Here is where we currently sit.
Take the car COMPLETELY apart to bare shell, bead blast to remove ALL sound deadening,

I didn't bead blast mine...a scraper did the trick. My car had over 30 pounds of the stuff, and I left 25% of it. I tend to doubt that a horn is 30 pounds. or a washer bottle. More like 1.5.

Or we could remove horns, hvac, all bottles, etc. Window regulators...which BTW I never understood why we HAVE to run glass.

You don't. In exchange for you deciding to invest a few pound and little time in your won safety, you are allowed to remove all the door crap you list. Just add a horizontal bar that protrudes in the door cavity. See "NASCAR bars" in the GCR. That's a win win.

As for wipers and HVAC, see my previous post. Some folks need them...why should they be at a disadvantage? It doesn't cost anyone anything to leave the stuff in the car.

Sure weight is an issue and the cost of going to plexi...but the idea of getting hit with lots of crackling glass is a little frightening.

No offense, but you frighten easily. It's safety glass....when was the last time you heard about a guy in a full suit and gloves, with a helmet and probably some form of glasses and/or shield getting hurt by broken safety glass? That is SO not on my list of things I worry about.

Based on what has been discussed in the V2.0 process thread, someone stated that the point of IT was the have purpose built race cars, but from cars you would buy on the showroom floor. It was also said by an ITAC member that these cars are SUPPOSED to be trailers to each event.

Who said that?? We might suggest that yea, driving a race car to the track is increasing your odds of walking home, but I drove mine to the track for many events. Walked home twice. I had coilovers, and cranked 'em up when I was going too the event. And I had taller rear springs that I swapped in and out. PIA? Sure! But, I did it, and I'm proud to say that I was one of the fastest, if not the fastest of my class/type. We CAN do lots of things, but we CHOOSE to do things that meet our needs and wants.

Sorry if the above comes of frustrated...I just have a regular competitor in ITB that is making the jump to H-Production because he didnt read the rules [when he built his car to IT specs] and now he has to ADD all those items back into his car....so now he's out recruiting people to stop running in IT and run in Production...

So, he builds a car and doesn't read the rules...then poaches your buddies to leave the class and join him....THAT'S a reason we're supposed to change the rule book!? Priceless....

[GTIspirit]

I didn't bead blast mine...a scraper did the trick. My car had over 30 pounds of the stuff, and I left 25% of it. I tend to doubt that a horn is 30 pounds. or a washer bottle. More like 1.5.

You don't. In exchange for you deciding to invest a few pound and little time in your won safety, you are allowed to remove all the door crap you list. Just add a horizontal bar that protrudes in the door cavity. See "NASCAR bars" in the GCR. That's a win win.

As for wipers and HVAC, see my previous post. Some folks need them...why should they be at a disadvantage? It doesn't cost anyone anything to leave the stuff in the car.

No offense, but you frighten easily. It's safety glass....when was the last time you heard about a guy in a full suit and gloves, with a helmet and probably some form of glasses and/or shield getting hurt by broken safety glass? That is SO not on my list of things I worry about.

Who said that?? We might suggest that yea, driving a race car to the track is increasing your odds of walking home, but I drove mine to the track for many events. Walked home twice. I had coilovers, and cranked 'em up when I was going too the event. And I had taller rear springs that I swapped in and out. PIA? Sure! But, I did it, and I'm proud to say that I was one of the fastest, if not the fastest of my class/type. We CAN do lots of things, but we CHOOSE to do things that meet our needs and wants.

So, he builds a car and doesn't read the rules...then poaches your buddies to leave the class and join him....THAT'S a reason we're supposed to change the rule book!? Priceless....

Can I change my vote? I originally voted yes, but had doubts afterwards, doubts for similar reasons that Jake cited. IT is affordable Club Racing for streetable cars with minimal mods, that's the spirit, right? So on second thought I'm for maintaining the dual vestiges.

So, being "anti creep" in that area was really being rather backwards. For those that feel ECU cars have been getting a break, remember, the Process assumes a full tilt ECu will be used. The good news there is that yu can get great performance from ECUs that are very reasonable.

Maybe I'm flogging a dead horse, but as discussed elsewhere, there are some cars caught in the middle that can't take advantage of the open ECU rule because of the limitations imposed by the sensor rules. While yes, it is possible to get a useable ignition signal from the camshaft sensor, that signal is crap compared with that from a 36 tooth or 60 tooth crank trigger wheel. And that crappy signal will be a big handicap to finding any gains with a full tilt ECU. I'm mildly optimistic that this inequality will be resolved by the ITAC.

[Z3_GoCar]

.....You don't. In exchange for you deciding to invest a few pound and little time in your won safety, you are allowed to remove all the door crap you list. Just add a horizontal bar that protrudes in the door cavity. See "NASCAR bars" in the GCR. That's a win win.

As for wipers and HVAC, see my previous post. Some folks need them...why should they be at a disadvantage? It doesn't cost anyone anything to leave the stuff in the car.

No offense, but you frighten easily. It's safety glass....when was the last time you heard about a guy in a full suit and gloves, with a helmet and probably some form of glasses and/or shield getting hurt by broken safety glass? That is SO not on my list of things I worry about.

.....

Uh Jake,

If I remember correctly he's got a Volvo wagon, and is talking about the window glass from the second set of doors and wagon windows, I don't think door bars will help with those and last time I checked the side glass isn't safety, it's tempered as in shatters into tiny bits.

I've still not voted... how about adding the glove box to the list of stuff that can be removed from the interior? Oh, and technically I'm still required to have a seat heater as those aren't mentioned either. As for window fog it's called Fog-X same as Rain-X for the inside. Otherwise I've found the AC is much better at de-fogging the windshield than the heater.

[lateapex911]

Uh Jake,

If I remember correctly he's got a Volvo wagon, and is talking about the window glass from the second set of doors and wagon windows, I don't think door bars will help with those and last time I checked the side glass isn't safety, it's tempered as in shatters into tiny bits.

I've still not voted... how about adding the glove box to the list of stuff that can be removed from the interior? Oh, and technically I'm still required to have a seat heater as those aren't mentioned either. As for window fog it's called Fog-X same as Rain-X for the inside. Otherwise I've found the AC is much better at de-fogging the windshield than the heater.

OK, I guess I missed the part about it being the back doors. But the point remains, the stuff is hardly any more hazardous than gravel.

Also, think about it this way: Guys want to remove it for various reasons. The ITAC allows it. They just made a rule change that, what, hundreds or a thousand cars now will need to comply with.

You say, "Make it optional". Irrelevant. Most guys are far more concerned with becoming MORE competitive than with meeting rules just for the sake of meeting rules. They will change out that glass because it's 10 pounds way up high in the car that could be placed elsewhere, or left on the garage floor altogether. Of course, they'll need to source a replacement, or fabricate one.

Simply put, such a change alters the package that most will bring to the track, adds to the workload, and isn't needed. I just don't see a compelling reason to DO it.