2014 Improved Touring Participation

[seckerich]

You have a point Kirk, IT took a hit with the creation of ST. As the true cost of a ST car is now getting clearer many will see IT as a better route. IT remains strong in the divisions listed in the chart because many of us actively find parked cars and get new drivers into them. Find me anything but a spec class where a car built in 1996 can still run up front? That is the real value of IT that is lost on so many people. You, and the many members of the ITAC over the years made that reality. ST is a direct competitor to Production and will most likely hurt both. It was a toss up for me for next years Runoffs, but EP won out because of the level of prep involved to be fast. ST is World Challenge light and if a rule book says you can, then you must to win.

Keep in mind Florida draws more cars to a non points regional at Daytona than most regions draw to a big points race. Why, because it is fun and low key. Something many have forgotten.

[Butch Kummer]

Keep in mind Florida draws more cars to a non points regional at Daytona than most regions draw to a big points race. Why, because it is fun and low key. Something many have forgotten.

I disagree - they draw because they have a larger racer (retired folks with money) population but more importantly, because they run at Daytona and Sebring. And I don't believe I'd EVER use "low key" and "Robin Langlotz" in the same sentence...

[Flyinglizard]

If we are a member driven club, the line " out for member input" would be a lot more common. Each member gets a vote. If we want to run IT @ Rubboffs we should vote it in. But kee p in mind that there are many reasons national level tech is not easy for IT . We dont have much of the required data to enforce the rules. and more.
But if we are a club, for us, we should be able to vote for this, simple as that.

IT has driven many away for a few minor reasons. We all like a chance to podium . You have a few cars that set lap records across the country. The ITB Hondas , the Mk 3 Vws have driven the old guard to other classes. Fix this and more cars will stay. Many Mk 1 and 2 VWs have moved to Prod.

Adjust the class from the results, not some theory. Prod does this..

The PITA for SCCA protest. allows many questionable cars to continue running . The honest guys just say eff it and finds someplace else to play.

The lack of legal /stock parts for the old cars. It is illegal to update to stronger more available parts. Prod allows most of these parts.
Not wanting to keep buying the little crap like turn signal lights, headlights etc.

Solve these issues in a timely fashion to stay alive. The IT rules have taken so long to change.

SCCA also faces a huge market swing to PDX and track days. No easy way to keep racing when the new money wants to run the crap out of their street cars.
I expect we will soon have one day of PCX/TT and one day of racing over the weekend.
The well funded drivers have also tried the crapcan racing. 1500$ per and lots of racing no sitting around.

[StephF]

Oh my God.
it's only December 11th, and we're ALREADY arguing this again?
Screw Farmer's Almanac: this is the real place to tell what kind of winter we're going to have.

[StephenB]

It may offend some but in my opinion Andy and Steve are correct, and "get it". I commend them for being open minded and not so close minded. I would quote everything they have said so far.

SCCA Participation is falling, not just IT. We need some big changes and getting rid of the stupid national, regional, majors crap should be extremely high on the priority list. No one gets it other than the old timers, no one cares other than the old timers. It's time for the change... well back in the 90's was the time IMHO... yup about the same time NASA came around, and SCCA worlds challenge... Most people that ran nationals back in the 70's and 80's didn't have touring car and continental challenge to run. Let alone all the other "pro" stuff. Let's face the truth that national or not, club racing attracts the same people nowadays and the national racers of back then would have been doing the new "pro" thing. time to catch up to the changes that took place in 1990 just within our own organization.

Stephen

[gran racing]

The ITB Hondas , the Mk 3 Vws have driven the old guard to other classes.

As someone experienced this first hand, many of the old guard were complacent running on an old engine that was built many years ago, had crappy suspensions from the 80s, ran old tires, and so on. Several of these cars got the attention of people who wanted to really develop them, were willing to invest in the pretty good bits, had pro motors built, and used fresh tires. It became laughable when the old guard would approach me, complain about my car, look over and see just heat cycled tires on it, I'd ask how many cycles were on theirs and the response was either I don't know or maybe around 20?

To prove that point home, an old guard car was brought to Lime Rock several years ago where it was not a front runner. Of course because the car was aged, and didn't have the performance as others. A talented driver who hadn't driven that car in many years jumped in, and within a few laps was well under the lap record and not on fresh tires (if I recall correctly).

Is it conceivable that a guy with a top Regional effort would want to continuously up his game and have goals and targets to shoot for? The flip side to this is that guy gets bored with smacking his locals around and stops racing. Now there is lost revenue.

Yes, I'll agree that guy wants to continuously up his game, BUT not be required to significantly up the build cost. I want to race against people who have similar budgets and make it about how we spend our limited budgets, and the driver. Do I want to be racing against a bunch of guys who have $50k builds? Nope. And the same guys who have the money to constantly be getting top coaching around the U.S. and all of the other advantages money brings? Between the two, I don't see that it would be that much fun to be to a AAA ball club constantly playing against the Yankees.

Andy, there numerous times I thought that you built your car too well and as a result, it took the fun away.

[StephenB]

I love chasing the best. ITR in the northeast has the money, driver coaching, and top builds that would and could compete at a national level. I am trying to catch them... I may never do it but it's fun to try!



Stephen

[Tom Blaney]

Dave

Part of the real enjoyment of amateur racing is that everyone who follows the rules when it comes to preparing a car has the same chance to win as the "rich guy". This does not matter if it is a GT/Prod/IT car, the rules will state that you can do only so much to the car. There is not a whole lot of performance difference between my motors and the guys down south, we all know the technical details. So a 5k difference is a motor build will not get you anything that an effective driver can't overcome. You proved that with the "old timers car" and the talented driver resetting track record.

Also part of the enjoyment of these kinds of classes is that the owner/driver/builder can sit in his garage with a can of beer and think how he can improve the car's performance with his own skills and effort. I know for a fact that when you beat a "race shop prepped" with your "home built" it is a much better victory lap then most.

So my contention (and I agree with some of the comments) that the club dispose of the national/regional would allow more people to compete in bigger fields (and against some really good "national drivers") and enjoy one of the reasons this is amateur racing.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yes, I'll agree that guy wants to continuously up his game, BUT not be required to significantly up the build cost. I want to race against people who have similar budgets and make it about how we spend our limited budgets, and the driver. Do I want to be racing against a bunch of guys who have $50k builds? Nope. And the same guys who have the money to constantly be getting top coaching around the U.S. and all of the other advantages money brings? Between the two, I don't see that it would be that much fun to be to a AAA ball club constantly playing against the Yankees.

Andy, there numerous times I thought that you built your car too well and as a result, it took the fun away.

As a Red Sox fan, I never blamed the Yankees. I blame MLB. You can't have a system in place where one guy has an unlimted budget and one guy can spend 1/10th of that. There is no ceiling.

Having said that, there is no form or racing where budget doesn't matter. Fresh tires every session, highest end data to learn more, private driving coaches, fresh motors way more often... All it takes is one guy to up his game and that becomes the new standard. In NER, it was Blaney and Serra that kicked off the onslaught. I can say this with fact because those were the cars I looked at when I asked myself if I wanted to jump in.

I had plenty of fun doing what I was doing...but it was time for me to go. I loved the class rules and there was no National Championship to shoot for so I was done with any 'goal's' I had. Couple that with an intense love of coaching youth sports, it all fizzled.

Track records will fall with new tires and more HP development. It's all good.

The IT rules are good and the management of said rules is good. It's when there are lots of entries. Find a car you love and build it and have fun.