What is a "touring car?"

[Matt93SE]

I stand corrected.. I guess a 1.6l engine with 100whp and 0-60 in >8sec is a sports car now.. sure coulda fooled me. Fook my old Maxima with 200whp and 6.5s 0-60 must be a supercar!!

[StephenB]

I have just been reading along so no real input here since I am not a contributing member or supporter to the whole ST idea.

Now that the miata is being considered as a sports car I guess people can stop calling the SCCA the Mazda car club of America and we can go back and call it the Sports Car Club of America again!

Stephen

[Matt93SE]

[Chip42]

I stand corrected.. I guess a 1.6l engine with 100whp and 0-60 in >8sec is a sports car now.. sure coulda fooled me. Fook my old Maxima with 200whp and 6.5s 0-60 must be a supercar!!

you have to contextualize the comments. think Austin-Healy, MGA, Elan, etc... THOSE are quintessential sportscars and what the miata was emulating, albeit an evolved version. Like them, the miata isn't about OMG face ripping acceleration, it's about balance. in that, it has a SUPERB chassis and a good enough motor. the miata is also a very unique car in the current automotive landscape, being one of very few and by far the most successful low hp sportscar. the HP gains in stock cars over the last few decades, and specifically the era from ~2000 to 2010 have been insane. old supercars (lambo miura, pick a ferrari) are slower than modern family sedans by 0-60 and 1/4 mile measurements. engine tech came on strong in the wake of better computer modelling. conversely, most chassis engineering has devolved into beams and struts liek it was in the original rabbit to make them cheaper and easier to build and to make more room for our fat asses and copious amounts of crap we seem to carry about.

We're talking about a 2.0L and under 4cyl class in STL - i.e. an econobox class, and a 3.2L and under class in STU - sedans, touring cars, etc... The definition of sportscar being put forward is that it is one with substantially better handling, balance, and smaller frontal area / better aero than the bulk of the sedans, econoboxes, and "touring cars" that otherwise fit in STL and U, ostensibly those cars for which the class was created. this offers such "sportscars" an advantage. lets list cars that even approach the miata in terms of chassis and "sportscar" characteristics built since 1985. miatas, S2000, Z3/Z4, MR2 SW20 and spyder (the AW11 is a corolla in reverse and much better remembered than it is to experience today), supra, RX7/8, 30/5/70Z, 200/240SX, corvette, elise, exige, boxter, cayman.... you can see the list elevates out of the STL range QUICKLY and out of the STU range nearly as fast. "sportscars" today pretty much are "super cars" of yesterday.

Your maxima with the stock V6 doesn't meet the requirements of STL and might not even fit in STU, depending on year (anything after the VG30 is out). The fact that modern cars are by and large SERIOUSLY overpowered for most SCCA classes is a whole 'nother discussion.

[Matt93SE]

Thank you for the clear and concise description. However, this IS the Sports Car Club of America, right? This isn't the Boxy Family Sedan Club of America, and IMO this goes back to the warts and all. you can cut up classifications until there's a different class for every car on the planet, and you'll STILL find someone that will argue that it shouldn't be there. again, IMO, but you guys are picking nits that just don't need to be picked. If you didn't want Miatas in STL, then you shouldn't have allowed them from day one.

Arguing theory of "what's a touring car?" three years into the game really doesn't make sense to me. stop bitching on the interweb and go make your Civic faster!!

(FYI, the Maxima thing was a joke.. It would be legal for STU at 3300lbs, but the car itself is so ungodly tall and has a horrible suspension for performance, so it simply wouldn't ever stand a chance of being competitive.)

[Peter Olivola]

I wonder if any of the founders of the SCCA, who had to contend with a decade plus controversy over the definition of a sports car, are reading this and screaming at their wives.

[Greg Amy]

I wonder if any of the founders of the SCCA, who had to contend with a decade plus controversy over the definition of a sports car, are reading this and screaming at their wives.

Ok, I LOL'd at that...

[Knestis]

... (FYI, the Maxima thing was a joke.. It would be legal for STU at 3300lbs, but the car itself is so ungodly tall and has a horrible suspension for performance, so it simply wouldn't ever stand a chance of being competitive.)

Waitaminute. You think "ungodly tall" is some kind of a design disadvantage on the race track? And that suspension design was a compromise from ultimate performance to maximize passengers and luggage space, and minimize production cost...? REALLY?

We can revisit how the Miata (et al.) found its way into STL if you want but it wasn't by design.

Asking about a first principle of a class is certainly not "picking nits." I think maybe you don't know what that term means.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

We can revisit how the Miata (et al.) found its way into STL if you want but it wasn't by design.



K

Sure it was. It's a power to weight class based on engine volume. That door is wide open for any chassis newer than the designated year in the rules. The tweaks toward equity in a National class are always ongoing but let's not pretend the Miata somehow snuck in the back door to this party. The invitee list has been clear since inception and there has been no change since the original GCR version that has magically allowed 'sports cars'.

[Matt93SE]

Asking about a first principle of a class is certainly not "picking nits." I think maybe you don't know what that term means.

K

Sure it was. It's a power to weight class based on engine volume. That door is wide open for any chassis newer than the designated year in the rules. The tweaks toward equity in a National class are always ongoing but let's not pretend the Miata somehow snuck in the back door to this party. The invitee list has been clear since inception and there has been no change since the original GCR version that has magically allowed 'sports cars'.

This. Remember that whole disclaimer about 'competitiveness not guaranteed' ?? Well now people are whining Because Miata and you're trying to make the other chassis more competitive.. The door's been open to 'any car after 1985' since the inception of both STU and STL, so trying to decide now that you didn't want 'sports cars' to be included is picking nits to me..

Yeah.. let's kick the running back off the football team because he's too fast and none of the kids on defense can catch him! Then trophies for all!!

[Greg Amy]

Remember that whole disclaimer about 'competitiveness not guaranteed' ??

Know how I know you've not been involved in Nationals/Majors racing...?

[Greg Amy]

...let's not pretend the Miata somehow snuck in the back door to this party.

Concur, it was always invited to the party. However, in our ongoing - and decisively not yet resolved - quest to enable parity between FWD and RWD cars, we've consistently increased the RWD adder from (I think?) 2%, to 3.5%, to today's 5.5%. And, of course, IMO we're not there yet (I think it needs to be 7.5% minimum).

However, it is only recently that we're finally realizing that one reason we're not there yet is not necessarily FWD vs. RWD; in fact, it's becoming more apparent that there's additional characteristics beyond RWD that make them a better package. It is because of this recent realization that we're now discussing implementation of an additional characteristic, one that does a better job of taking into account "better than the sum of its parts". The Miata is just one clear, obvious, and numerically advantageous illustration of that concept. Other examples include the Honda S2000, Acura NSX, etc.

In other words: "sports cars".

So the questions at hand are...do "sports cars" actually exist, do they have a performance advantage over "non sports cars", and if so how - or if - should they be appropriately classified?

GA

[JS154]

I stand corrected.. I guess a 1.6l engine with 100whp and 0-60 in >8sec is a sports car now.. sure coulda fooled me. Fook my old Maxima with 200whp and 6.5s 0-60 must be a supercar!!

Sports CAR not sports ENGINE.

[tom91ita]

I am wondering if RWD is the proper criteria.....

or should it be F/R weight distribution? 50/50 is base case and 60/40 gets a 5% reduction.

Is it the driving location or the benefit of distribution that contributes the most to the sum of the parts?

[Chip42]

it's a LOT of things. RWD is a characteristic, not an inherent behavior or capability. ditto FWD. that some platforms have more of the good and others less while sharing drive wheels and some other adjectives is the issue that's hard to address without naming names.