99-03 Golf is now in ITB - any thoughts?

[Knestis]

Yeah - it seems like for some of the options we're asked to list, there's no really good answer.

We can go heavy one way or light the other, but with the "tweeners" there are as many good reasons to NOT choose one course of action as there is to choose it. The MkIV tipped the scale one way, the Protege the other - based on the best information we had to work with.

It's impossible to know the Truth before someone an example of a new car, and frankly still really tough to sort the facts from fiction AFTERWARD. (See also, "1st generation MR2")

K

EDIT - And please remember that my comments about the ITAC as a body are filtered through my perceptions. I cannot see into the souls of my fellow committee members on a conference call. Recognize too, we work toward consensus decisions - one definition of which is that EVERYONE is a little pissed off about the final answer.

[Bill Miller]

Kirk,

You do know that you're making a pretty strong case for dual-classification w/ posts like this, don't you?

I admit, it's a tough call. Are people more likely to build a car that they know they can't get close to the spec weight on, or are they more likely to build one that's seems to be overly bloated? And I know it's not as simple as that. There's the issue of exactly which classes are in question. I don't think you'd have the same issues w/ ITS vs ITA as you would ITB vs ITC. By that I mean to say, I don't think the class would come into play (much) w/ the ITS/A case, as it would w/ the ITB/C case. ITS and ITA are pretty healthy, regardless of where you go. The same can't be said for ITC. So, people may be less inclined to build a car for ITC, regardless of the other factors. Having something that's carrying a bunch of extra weight doesn't help sway them in a positive way (assuming that you want them to build the ITC car).

So, why not class the cars in both places, and let the 'market' decide? I know it gets stick on the ITA/B side, because of the wheel issue. And I know it gets sticky when you have class weights that are on either side of the cage size boundaries. That means you probably won't get a lot of cross-over cars running both classes, but if you're looking at new cars, it becomes less of an issue, as people will build the cars for the class they want to race in.

I'm trying to get my hands around the resistance to dual-classification. Or at least what people see as major reasons not to.

Yeah - it seems like for some of the options we're asked to list, there's no really good answer.

We can go heavy one way or light the other, but with the "tweeners" there are as many good reasons to NOT choose one course of action as there is to choose it. The MkIV tipped the scale one way, the Protege the other - based on the best information we had to work with.

It's impossible to know the Truth before someone an example of a new car, and frankly still really tough to sort the facts from fiction AFTERWARD. (See also, "1st generation MR2")

K

EDIT - And please remember that my comments about the ITAC as a body are filtered through my perceptions. I cannot see into the souls of my fellow committee members on a conference call. Recognize too, we work toward consensus decisions - one definition of which is that EVERYONE is a little pissed off about the final answer.

[Rabbit05]

Now that the MKIV has been classified.

I wanted to ask for your guy's honest opinion. Since you all have been running VW's longer than I have, and have way more experience. Can the MKII Golf still a competitive package in ITB? I see that Beran , and Kirk are runnign MKIII's , along with Tim M.s MKIII here in the NE . Has the MKII gone the way of the MKI ?

Thanks for your Opinions in advance.

-John

[Beran]

John -
I have raced all three, the MK1, 2 and 3. I have most of my racing hours in a couple different MK2s. (since 1993)
IMHO the MK3 is better than the 2 and the 2 is better than the 1.
Of course car preparation and driver skill provides enough of a difference in lap times to allow someone to win or place ahead of the Mk3 or MK2.
So - driver and prep being equal the order is Mk3, Mk2, and Mk1.
This is especially true for longer tracks.... not as much true for shorter tracks like Lime Rock.
I actually like the feedback from the MK2 a little better than the Mk3.
We do have a 2 door Mk4 that I just picked up a couple weeks ago for $500 that is in very good condition. I have been driving it on the road and I like the feedback and general feel of the car allot however I am not positive it will be faster than the MK3 for a number of reasons.
We are in the middle of building a second Mk3 (2 door this time) and we are incorporating everything we have learned from my current Mk3 4 door... and changes that should make it better.
So far VW has made the MK series better each time they make changes even within the Mk3 platform... e.g. later years are better.... just not sure if that will carry to the Mk4
My .02
Beran
feel free to call or email me -
beran at beranpeter dot com
also - the front air dam and other stuff I use i'd be happy to share...

[Knestis]

I'm convinced at this point that if equally prepared and developed there's not much separating the MkII and MkIII platforms. In fact, I think you might be able to get closer with a moderate budget with a MkII.

I chose the newer one ONLY because I wanted something that was a generation farther from vintage status, with parts still available, etc. If you put a good shoe in the MkII that Bildon still hasn't sold (so far as I know), it would be competitive.

The MkIV is going to be right in there, too.

Your mileage may vary and note that Beran's judgments are from firsthand driving experience. Mine are bigger and wobblier so I'd trust his input if I were you.

K

[Beran]

I agree with Kirk.
The MK2 has not gone the way of the MK1 at this point. The MK2 is right there. In New England region there are MK2's that win and beat the MK3's consistently.
From an investment point of view, avilability of parts, and longevity - one would not consider an MK1 platform for ITB at this point. If the price is right then an MK2 is a great way to go. Some of the stuff you can move over from your MK2 to an MK3... struts, rims, etc. The MK3 will hold it's value longer if there is such a thing in a race car then the MK2.
B

[Rabbit05]

Well asking the guys in the know is what i was after. I have a MKII ,with all the go fast stuff, It just needs to be built. But with the addition of the MKIV ,I was interested in something new and exciting. I think I will stick with the older car, I tend to do better with those.

Beran ,
I have a few questions to ask of you about the MKII . I 'll drop you an email in the morning. Gotta run ,the future wifey is calling. (6 weeks and counting till W-Day)


-john

[Bill Miller]

I agree with Kirk.
The MK2 has not gone the way of the MK1 at this point. The MK2 is right there. In New England region there are MK2's that win and beat the MK3's consistently.
From an investment point of view, avilability of parts, and longevity - one would not consider an MK1 platform for ITB at this point. If the price is right then an MK2 is a great way to go. Some of the stuff you can move over from your MK2 to an MK3... struts, rims, etc. The MK3 will hold it's value longer if there is such a thing in a race car then the MK2.
B

Beran,

Do you feel that the decision to not go w/ a Mk I is solely based on age of the car / availability of parts? Rabbits (and Mk I Sciroccos) still seem fairly popular in ITC, although I don't know if anyone is building new cars out of them. And as far as the availability of parts, the mechanical stuff is all still readily available, it's the body parts that are getting harder to find.

[Conover]

I don't think it's going to be any better, probably a little worse. Mini Cooper is going to be nice, someone please send me a mini and a big ol check!

[Beran]

Bill - yes the Mk1 is impossible to get sheetmetal for. I can buy a fender or hood for an MK3 for cheap money and get it from many sources. You can actually buy almost any part including floor panels which we did for the current one we are building.
Sooner or later we all need body work done - either from on track stuff or even off track hauling, moving, dumb moves etc. Aside from age related issues they are great/fun and easy to work on.

John - feel free to email.

B

[Knestis]

... You can actually buy almost any part including floor panels which we did for the current one we are building.

Yay! Beran's in the club!

K

[Rabbit05]

I dont know if you guys know about this site, heres the page :

http://www.rsjparts.com/catalog/inde...44884fcea6493a

Not bad deal for MKI panels and stuff.

You would think the MKI would be a little better, being that it's lighter. And the GTI's came with vented front rotors..Does the MKI put out the same HP as the CIS MKII ?

-John

[Andy Bettencourt]

Does the MKI put out the same HP as the CIS MKII ?

-John

Not being a wise-ass, just trying to stay up to speed...

SHOULD they put out the same hp? There is a 200lb (10%) difference in min weight...

Bill could answer this probably: Max whp for each of the 3 Gens.