Plain Old Gas ( POG )

[77ITA]

First and foremost:

DO NOT TRY TO SIGN UP FOR A POG STICKER YET. THIS IS CURRENTLY FOR SPEC MIATA ONLY.

Tom e-mailed me tonight and mentioned that there are already IT racers trying to sign up over at plainoldgas.com - Do no do this yet... If/when the time comes, you will get the stickers from me :cool:

Greg,

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that avgas fits the concept of POG. It's certainly up for discussion and I appreciate your input.

MMiskoe,
There is no enforcement. This is a proposed gentleman's agreement, not a rule and the specifications about what type of fuel is adequate as written. Yes it could be torn apart and we could argue semantics about fuel like we do with every other IT rule, but that's not what this is about at all.

Chris,
100 unleaded, if purchased at the track (or the same as what is available at the track), would certainly be classified as POG as far as I'm concerned. Such fuel is would be available to all competitors at that track and really doesn't give any advantage.

Everyone,

Again, we could tear this apart and argue each and every detail, but that's not what this is about at all.

[joeg]

$36.00 per gallon is likely going to be the price of POG in the not to distant future...

[shwah]

First and foremost:

Chris,
100 unleaded, if purchased at the track (or the same as what is available at the track), would certainly be classified as POG as far as I'm concerned. Such fuel is would be available to all competitors at that track and really doesn't give any advantage.

Everyone,

Again, we could tear this apart and argue each and every detail, but that's not what this is about at all.

OK. I buy mine from the local gas station pump, it's just Sunoco 100 unleaded. I'm not trying to nit pick details, I just wouldn't want to run the sticker unless what I am doing is consedered within the spirit of the agreement.

[lateapex911]

Yea, for this to work in the IT world, where high(er) compression engines are more common, (ITC=10.5, > ITR=11.5), guys like Chris, who is buying "safety" gas...need to be covered. Limiting it to "at the track" (or the same as at the track, by that do you mean exact manufacturer, etc?) is adding lots of inconvenience and probably un-needed expense to the agreement.

I never buy track gas...my car runs as well on 87 unleaded as it does on anything else. Somebody, please educate me as to what is typically available at the track, and, to take it a step further, what is the difference between those options, and the AV gas tGA speaks of?

If I understand the intent of the policy correctly... (Kirk's web bots will fire off an email to him upon seeing the term "policy" used at IT.com, LOL)...it's to keep the exotic and wacko formulations out. But, that might need amending for IT vs. SM. Perhaps there could be a second tier "POG" sticker, one with a "Declaration" blank line where the owner Declares his fuel, and writes it on the line. For me, that would be "87 UL", for Greg, that would be "100 LL", and for Chris, that would be "100 UL". Thoughts?

[Andy Bettencourt]

I don't see this working in IT. All of this is so far from the intended 'plain ole gas' that it's not even funny.

100 from the airfield or 100 from some rare 'pump' is just as available to me as having a 55 gallon drum of some cool VP Racing stuff dropped off at my shop and me pumping it into containers for track duty.

If you wanna be a POG guy, get your gas at gas stations.

Although I would be eligible for this sticker (as defined by the SM thread) I would NEVER want it to become a negative thing that guys in IT weren't doing it. Like Greg said, piece of mind costs little in the long run. It's why I change my fliuds after every race and hubs, rotors and pads mid-year. Needed? Probably not but what is happening here is an attempt to legislate cost........

Now if I was a guy who knew of a car that spewed fumes so bad that I got sick or my eyes watered, I would have a talk with that person for sure. Safety is a seperate issue in my eyes.

It's a noble effort for sure. Problem is, we have no relaible tests.

[shwah]

100 from the airfield or 100 from some rare 'pump' is just as available to me as having a 55 gallon drum of some cool VP Racing stuff dropped off at my shop and me pumping it into containers for track duty.

100 octane is readily available at dozens of pumps in my area, and in most areas - it is hardly 'at some rare pump'. We have the hot rod and muscle car guys to thank for that. I just buy it there because it is at least $1 / gallon cheaper than at the track. Here is a list (I don't know how current) of outlets for the Sunoco stuff I use, I have seen others that sell a similar VP fuel.
http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consum...T100Locations/

[erlrich]

100 octane is readily available at dozens of pumps in my area, and in most areas - it is hardly 'at some rare pump'. We have the hot rod and muscle car guys to thank for that. I just buy it there because it is at least $1 / gallon cheaper than at the track. Here is a list (I don't know how current) of outlets for the Sunoco stuff I use, I have seen others that sell a similar VP fuel.
http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consum...T100Locations/

Chris, you are indeed fortunate to have that many outlets; in VA we have 5, one at Summit, one at VIR (literally opposite ends of the state), and 3 others that are at least an hour away for me.

Then I have the local airport, which is 10 minutes away, and last I checked was $1.50 or so cheaper than the gas at the track. And I am one of those fools who chose to tune the ECU for 100 octane, so my choices are limited. I appreciate and support the idea behind the POG initiative, but if it will cost me more money & added inconvenience to join the cause I will also have to sit this one out.

[77ITA]

thanks for the great replies and conversation so far... this is the exact type of feedback I was looking for.

The main goal at hand is to not include any "exotic" fuels under the classification of POG, but also to not include fuels that are not readily and easily available to everyone.

I realize that IT is much different than SM and that some people need higher octane fuel, but I doubt there are any IT cars the require better smelling gas than what is available at your average track or retail pump.

I realize that there are a lot of "what-ifs" and POG lacks the fine detail and definition of a rule, but that's just the way it should be.

It's obvious what the spirit of POG is and it's up to each individual to decide if it's in-line with their philosophy and if they want to participate. I feel very strongly about not making any adjustments to the definition of POG and feel that it would fit into IT just fine.

[spdmonkey]

Frankly I see AVgas as pump fuel. To me its no different from the race fuel I can buy at a station 4 miles from my house. The airport is just another mile and I can buy their gas too. This initiative is aimed at stuff like rocketfuel and others that are custom blended. Once you smell it you never forget it and anybody can tell the difference. While I have a SM you won't find me running the decal or the fuel its aimed to reduce. Its a gimmick.

[itracer]

The main goal at hand is to not include any "exotic" fuels under the classification of POG, but also to not include fuels that are not readily and easily available to everyone.

Just have everyone who is using "normal" gas, as defined here (with no additives, and not harmful to others) run an "X" on thier gas covers.

[Ron Earp]

I'd second what Steve says.

While I'd like a POG sticker for my car, and find the slogan humorous, I wouldn't want others to feel peer pressure to run POG or for folks to think I feel they are doing something wrong by running non-POG.

My car seems to like POG, but my car has a tad bit less compression than Steve's and the combustion chamber design is a bit more resistant to detonation (I'm told). Maybe I need to mix up a bit of a cocktail to make sure I don't have to rebuild my engine on a regular basis. While on a purely compression ratio evaluation I'd estimate I should be fine with 93 (~9.2 : 1), after thinking about the carburetors, uneven mixture distribution the cylinders, various changing conditions, maybe I could use a bit of insurance. I'm sure the guys that have higher compressions would like the insurance - 10.5 stock on some BMWs!! Couple that with racing and there probably isn't a lot of room for error.

100LL is available at any local airport for not huge money. When I flew often I'd pick it up for my Lotus that was running a lot of boost, just to have a bit of insurance to keep detonation at bay. I'd not begrudge anyone who wanted that little bit of extra insurance in their IT car.

Steve, I don't know if you're outspending me or not (my wife would say no way!), but I know you're out-driving me! And I know you aren't cheating, and the other fellows know that too. Keep on keeping on, I want to see that Z win some SAARC races (or at least come in close behind a TR8 and 260Z! )

R

[dickita15]

It's a noble effort for sure. Problem is, we have no relaible tests.

I think this a great idea for SM but I don’t think it is about enforcement, it is about trying to change the culture.

[IPRESS]

Guys, here is a little history on the subject. The POG deal is sort of an extension of the Pro motor deal in SM. Some folks have not been able to get their hands around the reality that SM is sorta spec but not all the way. These agreements worked OK when it was a regional class, but with "The Runoffs" involved all out escalation has taken place and some of the guys don't like it. One of the first targets was the dreaded Pro Motor, but nothing has been done to fix that problem, and the guys who were against that have taken up the POG cause. For some reason SCCA has not been able to outlaw some of these wild blended car cocktails. I am sure it is not easy to fix this problem or it already would have been addressed. The POG backers (and they mean well) are trying to use peer pressure to stop the exotic fule usage. I don't think it will work with National points at stake. People will use whatever is within the rules to prep to the max. Until the exotics CAN be legally outlawed I don't see some guys stopping their usage. The exotics can make a difference in a group of highly prepped SMs where every bit of added HP/TQ can be a difference maker. Of course with the last two RO winners in SM getting MX5 Cup rides, there is a little more up for grabs. (Although winning ARRC is bigger in my eyes!!!!)

As far as IT, if nobody uses it in the NE or SE it is not a problem. The rest of us are probably not near as serious (well maybe some of the Left Coast!)
Let Andy and his SMAC buddies try to fix it for them.
Not really a need here.
Jeff the S brothers mean well, and maybe a POG ground swell will push the powers that be to act, but I think they already would have done something if they could.

[IPRESS]

As a follow up, I understand that the fuel testing situation is very COMPLEX and has tons of variables. I would love to see every one using track / pump gas (at least common and available) as I would love to see other things in racing be held to a cost cap. BUT it ain't going to happen.
I support the idea of POG, but I am not comfortable with the idea that if someone disagrees he or she is made to look like a cheater when they are well within the rules.
As far as an agreement / smell test etc. How many times has the old "Lets work together and draft away from the pack." agreement gone to hell in a handbag as soon as the green flag flys?
Is that guy you had a deal with to draft together a dirty SOB cause he got a jump and left you behind? Should you wear a Tshirt that proclaims such? I don't think so.

[Greg Amy]

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that avgas fits the concept of POG.

Then, unfortunately, I cannot support the "POG" initiative. I agree with it in concept, but disagree with its implementation. Gasoline is gasoline (and, in fact, avgas is far more stable and consistent than any other world-wide...and ASTM-certified and -tested).

I suggest the initiative is better suited for stock-engined, stock-ecu'd classes such as Spec Miata (hah!) and Showroom Stock (?) but not for classes that allow internal engine modifications and modded ECUs. While I may not (probably don't) "need" higher-octane fuels, I'll never run street gas again; I've burned up too many engines in testing and development to skimp on a few dollars per gallon in fuels... - GA

[gsbaker]

...and ASTM-certified and -tested...

What?! I think all gas should be SFI certified.

[gsbaker]

I have heard that in the karting world, especially among the youngsters, all the tanks get drained into a common container and then refilled from that container, so everyone burns the same fuel mix.

[chuck baader]

I have even read most of the statements on this thread, and I have one major problem with running the exotic fuels....they obviously precipitate oxygen during the combustion process! All IT motors I know of are limited by the intake....that is, only so much oxygen can be introduced to combustion chamber...that is what limits horse power. If these 36$/gal fuels can make about a 5% increase in spec Miata power, they must be introducing oxygen into the combustion process....THAT IS ILLEGAL WHETHER OR NOT THE FUEL PASSES TECH!!! My O2 cents worth. Chuck

[Marcus Miller]

If these 36$/gal fuels can make about a 5% increase in spec Miata power, they must be introducing oxygen into the combustion process....THAT IS ILLEGAL WHETHER OR NOT THE FUEL PASSES TECH!!! My O2 cents worth. Chuck

By which rule?

How can it be illegal if it passes tech?
I only run track gas, there is no chance in hell I'm paying $36 a gallon for fuel...

Marcus

[Greg Amy]

How can it be illegal if it passes tech?

Oh, boy, here we go...

Passing tech does not equal "legal". Unenforceable does not equal "legal".

Balancing and blueprinting Miata engines in SM is expressly illegal to the rules; it's actually written in there. But, competitors still do it because it's unenforceable. Ergo, although balanced and blueprinted engines are expressly illegal to the rules, they are still done.

Same goes with the fuel rules: utterly unenforceable. But, the $36 witches' brews - while being expressly illegal to the rules - are done anyway.

(I find is amusing both debates/discussions/arguments center around the same vehicle prep category... purely coincidental, I'm sure... )