STL - what's going to be hot?

[Knestis]

but the rules make it so that everyone is running with different brakes. even the stuff expected to be popular, say a 96-00 Civic hatch. small front brakes, rear drums. only way it came in this country. STL has a problem here, because people are going to be putting big, ~200whp motors into little economy cars while others have cars equipped for much sportier intentions. but they could have the same motor.

STU and O allow alt brakes to a maximum diameter and piston count - you can get around it with OE brakes IF you are lucky enoguh to have soemthing bigger. everyone running to the same rules. STL should have a simillar allowance. IT rules work, for IT. and as someone said above, this is not IT.

Fair enough. My point - not well made - was that "they are race cars" is a lousy reason, in and of itself. If the view is that ST(whatever) warrants bigger brakes, the easy answer is to spec a maximum diameter and thickness, front and rear, for each class, and let folks go nuts. That's consistent with the first assumption re: engine size.

The idea that alternatives will be "considered" on a case-by-case basis, or some such, is pretty dangerous.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think the point is simple: Either allow them for everyone or none. Don't dork it up with line-item allowances.

[Greg Amy]

The idea that alternatives will be "considered" on a case-by-case basis, or some such, is pretty dangerous.

I think the point is simple: Either allow them for everyone or none. Don't dork it up with line-item allowances.

Plus many brazzillions. That's my personal position on the matter, and what I'm pursuing. - GA

[Matt93SE]

Fair enough. My point - not well made - was that "they are race cars" is a lousy reason, in and of itself. If the view is that ST(whatever) warrants bigger brakes, the easy answer is to spec a maximum diameter and thickness, front and rear, for each class, and let folks go nuts. That's consistent with the first assumption re: engine size.

The idea that alternatives will be "considered" on a case-by-case basis, or some such, is pretty dangerous.

K

I think the point is simple: Either allow them for everyone or none. Don't dork it up with line-item allowances.

Agreed on both counts. The STU rules are just that.. max diameter, thickness, and piston count. done. I don't see why STL should be any different, assuming there is a need for them over OEM rotors/calipers.

But those are the 2010 STU rules.. Or have they changed that too?

[lateapex911]

ST Ad Hoc members: read Kirks post . Again.

It DOES increasingly sound as though the ST category is actually more like 3 SUB categories. As there seem to be basic rules differences between the three classes.

My issue is (was) that the formula based system ignores stock components that limit power, thereby making it a one or two horse show. That's fine, but I find it a bit sad, as i think the rules package could be attractive to a lot of racers. I joked that STL should just be called "Honda Challenge", as it seems like those are the cars the math was designed for.

But now I'm hearing allusions to line item exceptions and parity adjustments...and I think, "oh boy, slippery slope, good luck with that".

If thats the direction, and I have no doubt that it is, because the old guard loves to diddle, I have one STAC request: Be transparent in the adjustments, and be consistent. Publish the factors that go into the adjustment, and the policies used to determine when and how. You DO have policies with which to work......right???

[Chip42]

I wrote a letter back in august or thereabouts that forcast this dilema. I think I was met with the mordern equivalent of "thank you for your input."

excerpts:

As proposed, the rules do not seem to be for a single cohesive category with 3 classes based on relative speed as is the case with IT, Production and, to a lesser extent, GT (the categories most similar to ST) but as 3 separate categories with similarities.

E.15, M.3, N.2, N.9, N.18 - weight adjustments need to be listed or at least summarized in one location with the weighting formula for the class. It is too easy to miss the various adders both for the competitor when preparing the car and at impound leading to an incorrect ruling.

9.1.4.N.8 – Allow alternate material control arms for STL that maintain the stock geometry. This is in keeping with the limited prep philosophy (stock geometry) and the category generally.

9.1.4.3.B.1- Allow the Honda F20C (S2000) and B18C5 (Integra Type-R) with replacement cams that meet the rules and/or an alternate minimum weight. See comments to 9.1.4.G.1-2 above.
9.1.4.3.B.3 – Adding to the input for 9.1.4.G.1 above, there are few cylinder heads in the 2.0L-and-under displacement range offered in the US that are suitable for building power with the allowed modifications, Honda/Acura having the bulk of them.

As there are many small-displacement motors from a variety of manufacturers available overseas (Japan and Europe specifically) that are suitable for racing use within the limits of the rules established and as proposed, I suggest per-request approval non-US market engines if they appear to fit within the category philosophy and fill a void in that manufacturer’s viable US offerings. This will allow Toyota, Ford, GM, etc… to be more competitive, particularly in STL where they would otherwise have few worthwhile options in the 2.0L and under range. Similar allowances have been made in GT (i.e. SR16VE Nissan) and the required published information for the motors is relatively simple to acquire in the modern age.

I Offer the following proposals to preserve parity, all could be covered under 9.1.4._.H, but bear mentioning in 9.1.4.G:
1- Non North American market motors may be permitted on an individually approved basis. The competitor is required to have a factory service manual for the motor as installed in the OE application. All other rules for the alternate engines apply.

2- Where the known possible output of a motor is substantially higher or lower than other motors of that displacement in the class, an alternate minimum weight will be listed based on proven engine output. Weight adjustment factors shall still apply to this alternative minimum weight.

9.1.4.3.E.1 – “OEM brake systems must be used. Alternate OEM brakes rotors or calipers from the same manufacturer will be considered” is in direct contradiction to the category specifications described in section 9.1.4.O.1, .9.a, and .10.

Alternate brake systems up to and including calipers should be permitted in STL. Alternate calipers and rotors should always be allowed as aftermarket brakes are a defining characteristic of ST and do not substantially add to cost, while also helping to level the field between various makes, models, and body styles otherwise treated more or less equally under these rules. Additionally, regulation of the class will be improved and more equitable in the long run if everyone is allowed the same brakes, and without appearing to play favorites by allowing brake upgrades to some cars while denying them to others. I suggest that STL allow any caliper with 4 pistons, to a maximum of 36mm (1.4in) piston diameter, or any 2 piston calipers, and a maximum of 2 pads per caliper. Allow rotors up to 290mm diameter and 30mm thick (this allows the Integra type R, VW Corrado G60, and other commonly available, off the shelf rotors to be used). Disallow slotted and cross drilled rotors.
Suggested language for 9.1.4.3.E:
1. Rotors
One piece ferrous rotors that do not to exceed 290mm in diameter by or 30mm in thickness (290x30mm) are permitted.

2. Permitted Calipers
The standard production calipers, any 4-piston calipers with pistons of 36mm maximum diameter, or any 2 piston caliper may be used.

I do not feel that the restrictiveness of the rules as proposed with regard to STL suspension and brakes are correct – they do not fit with the ST rules we have come to know, and they seem too strongly tied to IT. As IT cars are already allowed to come and play in ST without modification, and without the expectation of competitiveness, it makes sense to have STL more like the other classes in the category rather than occupying its own transitional space.

as it stands, STU seems overly complicated and STL seems detatched from the category as a whole. i'm really leaning towards taking my AW11 MR2 to NASA or something because ITAC can't get the lead out and STAC doesn't seem to have a direction in mind that I'm comfortable pursuing.

[Rabbit07]

I wrote a letter back in august or thereabouts that forcast this dilema. I think I was met with the mordern equivalent of "thank you for your input."




as it stands, STU seems overly complicated and STL seems detatched from the category as a whole. i'm really leaning towards taking my AW11 MR2 to NASA or something because ITAC can't get the lead out and STAC doesn't seem to have a direction in mind that I'm comfortable pursuing.

Continue to watch the Fastracks, we have been actively working on many of the points that you made.

[Rabbit07]

We are being very transparent with our adjustments. As I stated before we have started with STO. This being the most shook out of the classes so far. We discussed with all the main contenders in the class our intentions. We were able to gain their support based on the desire for parity. We asked them on the honor system to provide dyno numbers on their individual vehicles and went back and looked at how that matched our expected performance target. We made changes in restrictor plates and weight and again asked for dyno numbers. From there I personally installed SCCA DL-1 data boxes in 5 of those cars at Sebring this last weekend. All of the competitors were willing in the name of parity. The STAC will review the data and see if there are more needed changes or if we are going to ride it out until later in the season. The data boxes will likely be required at the June Sprints and the RunOffs. You can expect that to be the case for both STO and STU in this case. The STAC is looking at making it manditory for all of the ST classes when requested by an offical to carry a data box.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The STAC is looking at making it manditory for all of the ST classes when requested by an offical to carry a data box.

So for STL, the 'set it and forget it' via cc/weight method can NOT be counted on for those choosing a car right now?

[Rabbit07]

So for STL, the 'set it and forget it' via cc/weight method can NOT be counted on for those choosing a car right now?

Plan on things being regulated to around a 100 power number per liter.

Power Number= Hp+Torque/2

Particularly if STL gains national status. It's the only way people are interested if they are planing on the RunOffs.

All this being said, some cars will not do well at Road America, but could absolutely rock at Lime Rock. This doesn't mean they are outside the box of STL,U,or O.

STL has not shook out yet to see who the players are and what the average really is yet. STU is still a far cry from shook out. That is why we started the balancing in STO.

On Edit; Setting it and forgeting it isn't sustainable. It's the over achievers that we are looking for, not the under achievers. It's always easy to bring a few back than to speed the rest pf the class up. In the case of STO the big hitters were the Viper and LS7 Corvette making about 100 more in the power number than the rest of the class. They had there restrictor plates changed.

[Knestis]

... We asked them on the honor system to provide dyno numbers on their individual vehicles and went back and looked at how that matched our expected performance target. We made changes in restrictor plates and weight and again asked for dyno numbers. From there I personally installed SCCA DL-1 data boxes in 5 of those cars at Sebring this last weekend. All of the competitors were willing in the name of parity. The STAC will review the data and see if there are more needed changes or if we are going to ride it out until later in the season. ...

Oy.

You're setting the weight for a [whatever make/model] for the entire category, for an entire nation, based on data collected from (potentially) as few as one (1) example...?

Remember where I said there were three approaches, up above? Well, there's the fourth. It's like competition adjustments (bleah!) on meth...

All kidding aside, I am very worried about that. You're taking the one really good thing about the category-as-originally-designed and throwing it out the window.

K

[Rabbit07]

These classes were derived from World Challenge. In World Challenge data collection and restrictions are used to regulate the cars. This is not a new idea nor should it be suprising to anyone.