December Fastrack...

[Knestis]

VERY interesting...

Some people will always complain about multiple classes in a group but that's a first principle of what we do. If we were really concerned about confusing folks, we wouldn't have so damned many classes in the first place, right?

K

[JIgou]

Matt, Kirk, I have heard of the 2 test rationals ran at the end of last year, with national office blessing, 1 was a success and 1 was not. I do not know if High Plains or Miller was the success. Does anyone have anymore info on the 2 weekends and the problems they faced?

If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the High Plains event being the "successful" Rational and the Miller event being the "not-so-successful" event.

My basis: Proximity to Denver, and nothing else.

[lateapex911]

VERY interesting...

Some people will always complain about multiple classes in a group but that's a first principle of what we do. If we were really concerned about confusing folks, we wouldn't have so damned many classes in the first place, right?

K

Yes. Up the line I read somebody stated how the Prod racers hate racing with the IT guys. Well duh. I doubt they want to race with GT1 and GT2 guys, Spec Racer Fords, Spec Miatas, Formula Atlantics or any of the other classes! Simple truth is nobody wants to race with anybody who gets in their way if it isn't for the class position. (in most cases, there are exceptions, but those are usually guys in large classes who aren't up front, who just like racing somebody...ANYbody.)

So, I can certainly see how the National guys would object to the inclusion of more cars, especially when those national guys from poorly subscribed classes are often racing for 2nd. (which could also be second from last) ....and now they are having their trophy race messed up by the Regional interloper.

And I understand the "contact" complaint about fragile cars not racing well with sturdier cars, but the complaint shouldn't be limited to "Prod guys hate racing with IT cars", it should be "Guys in cars that are fragile like Prod, or Sports Racer cars hate racing with sturdier cars like Spec Miatas, IT cars, and SS and Touring cars". But, due to the numbers, complaints get thrown towards the larger classes like SM and IT. Of COURSE you're more likely to have issues with a category that fields 30 cars in your group like IT or SM over the ONE SSC car....

[DavidM]

A "Rational" still has the national/regional distinction and it seems even more ridiculous. Cars in the same class, on the track at the same time, but not racing each other? Having to put "N" and "R" on the cars? Yeah, I can see how that would be confusing.

SCCA needs to figure out how to have race weekends that maximize the use of the track. That is, get the most people out to the track. A good way of doing that would seem to be to eliminate this national/regional race weekend separation and somehow combine weekends. I don't necessarily think that means you have to run every class on the same weekend, but somehow organize things to get the most people out to the track on a weekend. I personally think double race weekends are the way to go since you get in more racing, but national weekends aren't run that way. I typically only tow multiple hours to double weekends. There would be some "cultural" boundaries to overcome. This national/regional weekend separation causes SCCA to spread it's cars too thin IMO and I think that is just going to get worse. Eventually something will have to be done and I personally don't think "Rationals" is the way to do it. Just have classes and race weekends. Makes things much simpler.

My $.005.

David

[ner88]

Yes, NER will be hosting a Rational at NHMS April30-May1.
For years we have hosted a National race at NHMS and have watched the numbers drop.
Those that do attend for the most part are regional racers with National licenses and compete because it's an event and really don't care if its a National or regional.
So, why run a national at all? Well we feel as a region we have an obligation to our National competitors.
Some have said our event is too early in the season, we are to far north (isolated from the rest of the world) or they just don't like the track! What ever the reason I don't think what ever we do we can draw a big National crowd.
So, we will try a RAtional.
How it will all play out is unknown but what I will say is we will do everything we can to give everyone a fun event with as much track time for a great value.
At this point we are looking at our national run groups remaining the same with a few tweaks(yes, NAtional and regional drivers will be on the track at the same time).
We expect to add two regional only run goups giving as many racers as possible an opportunity to double or triple dip.
Stay tuned!

[Andy Bettencourt]

It doesn't have to be this difficult. A 'Rational' in my mind is a National with a restricted Regional as a run group. If you include IT cars as a National class, I bet the need for extra cars and revenue goes away.

If it's a points paying 'National', it is publisized as such with the required schedule - but with all GCR classes included.

Top 20 classes get their own run groups at RA, bottom 15 get combined groupings.

A 'Rational' with combined regional and national cars in the same run group won't work under the current climate. Why? Regional guys don't seen the value in the National weekend schedule. You have to seperate them somehow.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yes, NER will be hosting a Rational at NHMS April30-May1.
For years we have hosted a National race at NHMS and have watched the numbers drop.
Those that do attend for the most part are regional racers with National licenses and compete because it's an event and really don't care if its a National or regional.
So, why run a national at all? Well we feel as a region we have an obligation to our National competitors.
Some have said our event is too early in the season, we are to far north (isolated from the rest of the world) or they just don't like the track! What ever the reason I don't think what ever we do we can draw a big National crowd.
So, we will try a RAtional.
How it will all play out is unknown but what I will say is we will do everything we can to give everyone a fun event with as much track time for a great value.
At this point we are looking at our national run groups remaining the same with a few tweaks(yes, NAtional and regional drivers will be on the track at the same time).
We expect to add two regional only run goups giving as many racers as possible an opportunity to double or triple dip.
Stay tuned!

I bet the event makes big bucks...because of the inclusion of the Regional-only racers. The flip side is obvious...while the RO guys subsidize the National, you thin out the available dollars to be spent at the true Regionals later in the year. For the Region, it may be robbing Peter to pay Paul. I hope not.

[ner88]

OR, look at it as we dropped an event but didn't lose any races!

[Greg Amy]

At this point we are looking at our national run groups remaining the same with a few tweaks(yes, NAtional and regional drivers will be on the track at the same time).

That's kinda odd...are you saying that racers will have the declare whether they're running for Regional or National points, and the finishing order intra-class will have to be sorted out afterward...?

Or are you saying some Regional-Only classes may be mixed in the same group as National classes?

I'd suggest the best way to handle it that everyone who races in a National-eligible class is deemed running for National points, and then you have additional Regional-Only groups and/or classes mixed in there running for Regional points, roughly similar to the way Pro-IT was handled (let's face it, the only non-National classes out there are Improved Touring A/B/C/S/R and Super Touring Light...and the latter can enter the STU National race...<shrug>) - GA

[ner88]

As I understand it right now, if you run a national class you will have to declare if you are running for national or regional points and will be scored within your request.
I say tweak because classes like SPO, SPU or ITE may remain in the big bore run groups.
Now you can still run say SM for National points and run STL for regional points.(as long as they are not the same race!)

[JIgou]

Jerry, it isn't that cut-and-dried.

My understanding is that one driver in one car can run both regional AND national in the same race. I'll stay away from T&S for those weekends, thankyouverymuch.


Personally, I look at this as a baby step toward eliminating the Regional / National distinction.....which I do NOT look at as a bad thing.

[ner88]

As I undersatnd it, a driver can NOT run for both national and regional points in the same race. One entry per driver, per race (not event).

[xr4racer]

Jerry, you are absolutely right, you are either running as a regional car or a national car not both.

matt

[xr4racer]

Greg, yes regional and national races will be going on AT THE SAME TIME. Even if it is a national class like production, there will still be regional only licensed production cars racing at the same time for regional points. Just because you have a car that is eligible to run nationals does not mean you have a national license.

matt

[Greg Amy]

...there will still be regional only licensed production cars racing at the same time for regional points.

That part I really don't like, unless we have some kind of review of experience to differentiate between someone that has 3 races to their name, versus someone with 20 years' experience and never bothered with paying for a National license...

GA

[ner88]

For our race (NER) we will not allow drivers on Novice permits to compete in National classes.

[lateapex911]

That part I really don't like, unless we have some kind of review of experience to differentiate between someone that has 3 races to their name, versus someone with 20 years' experience and never bothered with paying for a National license...

GA

because the guys with the National credentials are always better than the guys without? Or, the 4 or 6 race guys are better than the 3 race guys?

Splitting hairs when you get down to it.

(I'm just being a dick, but there IS a grain of truth to the fact that it sure isn't black and white. What was that video from the runoffs that year from the guy who warmed his tires at 20 MPH?....)

[Knestis]

Greg, yes regional and national races will be going on AT THE SAME TIME. Even if it is a national class like production, there will still be regional only licensed production cars racing at the same time for regional points. Just because you have a car that is eligible to run nationals does not mean you have a national license.

Ta-da! We're half way to losing the Regional-National distinction, at least where points-keeping is concerned.

The only question becomes how do you represent the RACE finishing order for bragging rights, checkered flag, trophies, and contingencies. The SARRC/MARRS meet-up at VIR manages to keep this straight in their results - for example

And why is it OK for a Nervice to potentially create havoc for Regional drivers and not National drivers? (Sorry for the smidge of hyperbole there.) There's that assumption that one group is somehow more skilled on the whole, than the other...

The more I think about the Rational option, the more I like it!

K

[ddewhurst]

I have a free seat in an American Le Mans Series car for three races this year. Anyone interested in a zero cost seat? Nuff said.............

[Matt93SE]

And why is it OK for a Nervice to potentially create havoc for Regional drivers and not National drivers? (Sorry for the smidge of hyperbole there.) There's that assumption that one group is somehow more skilled on the whole, than the other...

The other side of that coin is that the National drivers *should* be more skilled and more able to handle a situation with a n00b better than those poor regional schmucks with no 'real racing' experience.