Watkins Glen ITS Video - spectator view

[CRallo]

as far as lifting and swerving with out wrecking goes: any good driver knows that is easier said than done. I believe Greg did all he could do with out spinning himself instantly.

Greg: did you get nailed from behind?? after/during the wiggling...

[JeffHarding]

Time to award the "Asshat Move of the Race", which IMO happened on the front straight

On Sunday, I was at the top of the stands, down toward T1. On lap 2-4 (?), the two lead RX7's had a little "coming together", about 100 yds. past start-finish. Not really sure who decided to rub who, but somebody did it intentionally. One of the two even got a little sideways. Tire smoke, what looked like a major wrinkle in the fender(s)....at probably 100+mph with concrete on one side and armco on the other. WTF ?

Don't know if it got called in by S/F or T1 flaggers, but if not, here's some advice: Stewards see this crap and immediately think "somebody needs to sit out for a while...like 3-6 months".

Just sayin...

JRW
Sometimes driver, sometimes Steward
SSM #88
SRF # 57
etc. etc. etc.

That was me who got "rubbed" and "a little sideways". I had gotten a run out of T11 and was most of the way by the #19 car. I was inside with at least 2 car widths to my left and holding my line. Prior to the rub the 19 was squeezing and pinching me wherever he could and I think he just got a little too aggressive trying to move me to the inside that time. He came over and apologized after but had no explanation for why it happened. No mention from the stewards or flaggers.

Jeff Harding
#04 ITS RX-7

[wepsbee]

Greg, real sorry to see you take that hit. I hope you and the car will recover. I have raced there a couple of times and love the track, from my rookie perspective I would like to check on what my view would be: I would assume since the white car was so far towards the outside it should have stayed there through the turn. Is this correct??

[JohnRW]

That was me who got "rubbed" and "a little sideways". I had gotten a run out of T11 and was most of the way by the #19 car. I was inside with at least 2 car widths to my left and holding my line. Prior to the rub the 19 was squeezing and pinching me wherever he could and I think he just got a little too aggressive trying to move me to the inside that time. He came over and apologized after but had no explanation for why it happened. No mention from the stewards or flaggers.

That's pretty much what I saw. You (car on the inside) were nearly past the outside car, right in the freakin middle-right of the track approaching a right-hand turn, and your left rear quarter got seriously rubbed by the other cars right front. IMO, only "explanation" he could honestly offer is "I wanted to intimidate you...from behind...and 'crashing' is one variety of 'intimidate'". Apology = Crocodile tears. If this is a pattern...or the beginning of a pattern, you ITS guys should take note.

[Z3_GoCar]

Greg,

I'm glad you're alright. I know you'll have it fixed or replaced soon enough. It seemed like it was about to work untill the bumper rub.

James

[Tristan Smith]

I think the unfortunate lesson here is to always assume the slower car you are passing doesn't see you if you don't see a "point by". No doubt that can put you in some pretty precarious positions. The flip side from what I saw, was that he may have been a bit high in that portion of the corner (I have never driven WGI so I don't know the proper line) but he was ahead of the freight train and does have the right to the racing line. Tough call and bad results for all. Obviously if had no idea what or who hit him, he never saw the faster cars coming up on him, and that is a cardinal sin for slower cars in mixed fields.

[lateapex911]

I think the unfortunate lesson here is to always assume the slower car you are passing doesn't see you if you don't see a "point by". No doubt that can put you in some pretty precarious positions. The flip side from what I saw, was that he may have been a bit high in that portion of the corner (I have never driven WGI so I don't know the proper line) but he was ahead of the freight train and does have the right to the racing line. Tough call and bad results for all. Obviously if had no idea what or who hit him, he never saw the faster cars coming up on him, and that is a cardinal sin for slower cars in mixed fields.

Tristian, that's the problem. If you assume the guy is going to close the door, then the majority of them have to, otherwise you get passed like you're tied to the pier. In reality, most don't.

He WAS way high, and unless I hadn't seen the pictures of the wrecked Teg first, I would have assumed he was leaving room, and nothing was going to happen. The only reason I cringed when I got to that section of the vid was because I already knew the Teg was banged up.. And why wouldn't he stay high? it's SO easy to leave room there...there is NO reason to have to dive for the apex, and it's easy flat out for most IT cars, if not all. heck, I'm flat there in the wet.

And, not only must he be looking, but he must have no blind spots. Mirrors are cheaper than wrecked race cars. The leader had JUST blown through, the fact that other cars were coming should have been NO surprise, he had two straighaways to find them in the mirrors.




Could Greg have done a better job and missed him? Maybe. But we're all sitting in our desk chairs with the clip on repeat, in his split second position I would have attempted the same thing, but I have no idea how the outcome would have been. I know I would have been thinking "Oh s8it'.........

[dj10]

Do you use your headlights in situations like that? I find it works great. Not only do the lapped traffic see you earlier, but I find that the blue flags seem snappier too.

Josh, I thought about it, but far too late. Plus, I am relatively unfamiliar with the car and didn't want to dickin' around with switches while in the middle of that.

AHHHHHHHH Greg! Pilot to Pilot:cool:

[Doc Bro]

Greg,

The Z3 is shorter than the Teg. It would've fit...guaranteed.

Now where would a guy needing a racecar find a Kessler powered Z3 for sale? Hmmmm.:cool:

R

[CRallo]

Greg,

The Z3 is shorter than the Teg. It would've fit...guaranteed.

Now where would a guy needing a racecar find a Kessler powered Z3 for sale? Hmmmm.:cool:

R

ha, nice plug!

[CRallo]

That track shows no mercy; never has and never will.

that is true... once, back when I worked at Skip Barber we framed 14 cars in one week there. wrecked many more... 13 of those 14 cars fit into a trailer designed for 11

[Tristan Smith]

Tristian, that's the problem. If you assume the guy is going to close the door, then the majority of them have to, otherwise you get passed like you're tied to the pier. In reality, most don't.

He WAS way high, and unless I hadn't seen the pictures of the wrecked Teg first, I would have assumed he was leaving room, and nothing was going to happen. The only reason I cringed when I got to that section of the vid was because I already knew the Teg was banged up.. And why wouldn't he stay high? it's SO easy to leave room there...there is NO reason to have to dive for the apex, and it's easy flat out for most IT cars, if not all. heck, I'm flat there in the wet.

And, not only must he be looking, but he must have no blind spots. Mirrors are cheaper than wrecked race cars. The leader had JUST blown through, the fact that other cars were coming should have been NO surprise, he had two straighaways to find them in the mirrors.




Could Greg have done a better job and missed him? Maybe. But we're all sitting in our desk chairs with the clip on repeat, in his split second position I would have attempted the same thing, but I have no idea how the outcome would have been. I know I would have been thinking "Oh s8it'.........

Jake, I am not disagreeing with you at all. I am just saying that when I don't see a point by, all bets are off whether it is going to be a successful pass or not. Last year I was ahead of a car at Turn 7 at Rd Atl. He was almost on the inside edge of track. He still t-boned me. Hit me right in front of the rear tire. I even saw his video when I protested him. You could clearly see my whole car in front of him before he plowed in. My point is, sometimes bad things happen when you aren't sure of the guy in the car in front of you.

[Greg Amy]

The flip side from what I saw, was that he may have been a bit high in that portion of the corner (I have never driven WGI so I don't know the proper line)...

He was absolutely nowhere near the racing line.

He was a minimum of two cars widths outside of the racing line. Watch the video again and look for the shiny part on the asphalt immediately after passing the Golf; that's the normal racing line through the corner (I suggest turning off the sound and blocking visual reference to the 'Teg driver to get a better visual on what the Miata driver is doing relative to the racing line.) If you want a slightly better - and shorter - version of that video (not as Google-ized), select this link:

http://www.kakashiracing.com/temp/WGI-Short.wmv

I will not project motivations as to why or what the driver was thinking/doing.

Just sayin'.

[wwrightjr]

JohnW has a good perspective. As a spectator-driver in the ITS class for awhile, I have seen and been around enough too close racing. It appears the consesus is if I can rub the guy a bit or a bit more, he will move over or make a mistake. Although this may be used at a professional level, their budgets are a whole lot bigger and the outcomes are probably more important. We are at the amateur level. First is the possibility of being hurt. Second, everybody is spending as much as they can to be competitive. Any set back will cost more. ( I know and I do not want to hear the saying, If you can't spend the money you should not be in it.) The guy with the entry level car is trying just as hard as the guy who has been in for awhile. He pays the entry like everyone else. And can be on the track. But, I want to be somewhat sure that the other driver has enough sense to know what is going on around them. I know we take chances, but there is no need to make things worse by not thinking on track. This particular incident was high speed with great potential for injury. I saw Greg after and he seemed ok. I do not know about Mr Stahl the Miata driver. It has taken a few days with ibuprofen for my neck pain to go away. (I am probably 10 years older than most of you guys.) I hope he appreciates that I did not T-bone him in the door. For he was coming across the track in front of me. Time, Speed, Distance is what allows some to get thru and others not. RANDY POBSTS articles in Sports Car should be mandatory reading. If anyone has not read these they should. A very good guide to what to do. Wilson

[Jeremy Billiel]

JohnW has a good perspective. As a spectator-driver in the ITS class for awhile, I have seen and been around enough too close racing. It appears the consesus is if I can rub the guy a bit or a bit more, he will move over or make a mistake. Although this may be used at a professional level, their budgets are a whole lot bigger and the outcomes are probably more important. We are at the amateur level. First is the possibility of being hurt. Second, everybody is spending as much as they can to be competitive. Any set back will cost more. ( I know and I do not want to hear the saying, If you can't spend the money you should not be in it.) The guy with the entry level car is trying just as hard as the guy who has been in for awhile. He pays the entry like everyone else. And can be on the track. But, I want to be somewhat sure that the other driver has enough sense to know what is going on around them. I know we take chances, but there is no need to make things worse by not thinking on track. This particular incident was high speed with great potential for injury. I saw Greg after and he seemed ok. I do not know about Mr Stahl the Miata driver. It has taken a few days with ibuprofen for my neck pain to go away. (I am probably 10 years older than most of you guys.) I hope he appreciates that I did not T-bone him in the door. For he was coming across the track in front of me. Time, Speed, Distance is what allows some to get thru and others not. RANDY POBSTS articles in Sports Car should be mandatory reading. If anyone has not read these they should. A very good guide to what to do. Wilson

Wilson I am glad to hear that you are feeling better. This was an unfortunate incident that tore up 3 racecars. With that said, I think we are all curious to hear your view on what happened from your car.

We watch Greg's video and can see that the miata some how gains speed and T bones the Acura in the passenger side door. The only way we can reasonably assume that the miata caught up to Greg was if you hit the miata and transferred your energy into him, which then flew into Greg. Is this what happened?

I was watching the full resolution video last night and after watching it more it appears as though Greg missed "the hole" by a good amount. Why would that have happened? The only reasonable assumption is that as Jerry pulled to the right he scrubbed speed and slowed down, which closed the gap sooner than Greg anticipated and bam.... The rest is history. I guess at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Many mistakes were made and everyone is ok.

Again I am happy to hear that you are feeling better.

[CRallo]

I believe Greg missed the "hole" by a small margin, the contact was just bumper to bumper rub... I think Jermey is correct about the cause for the closure rate.

It appears that the Miata not only T-boned the Teg but I believe also was the car to tag Greg in the right rear with alot of lateral force and caused Greg to spin. Can't tell if the Miata got hit but it seems that Greg's rub upset his hard turn to the right and he overcorrected to turn into the Teg before Greg could get past.

or was that a given?? No one answered when I asked who hit Greg so I went back and (i think) figured it out myself...

[Chris Wire]

He was absolutely nowhere near the racing line.

He was a minimum of two cars widths outside of the racing line. Watch the video again and look for the shiny part on the asphalt immediately after passing the Golf; that's the normal racing line through the corner (I suggest turning off the sound and blocking visual reference to the 'Teg driver to get a better visual on what the Miata driver is doing relative to the racing line.) If you want a slightly better - and shorter - version of that video (not as Google-ized), select this link:

http://www.kakashiracing.com/temp/WGI-Short.wmv

I will not project motivations as to why or what the driver was thinking/doing.

Just sayin'.

In addition to the statement above, I think the other underlying reason for the incident is that the Miata driver appeared to take a rather late apex. Now I've never driven WGI, but have seen plenty of coverage inside cars and out. And at the speeds that it looks like on video, I would reasonably assume that the white curbing on the right would be about where the apex should be, no? That said, the Miata driver either chose a very late apex, closed the door without looking, or decided that he wanted the faster approaching cars to pass by his left and simply misjudged the closing speed.

Unfortunate for all for sure, but lessons can still be learned. Glad everyone is well.

[jgoyette]

Wilson I am glad to hear that you are feeling better. This was an unfortunate incident that tore up 3 racecars. With that said, I think we are all curious to hear your view on what happened from your car.

We watch Greg's video and can see that the miata some how gains speed and T bones the Acura in the passenger side door. The only way we can reasonably assume that the miata caught up to Greg was if you hit the miata and transferred your energy into him, which then flew into Greg. Is this what happened?

I was watching the full resolution video last night and after watching it more it appears as though Greg missed "the hole" by a good amount. Why would that have happened? The only reasonable assumption is that as Jerry pulled to the right he scrubbed speed and slowed down, which closed the gap sooner than Greg anticipated and bam.... The rest is history. I guess at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Many mistakes were made and everyone is ok.

Again I am happy to hear that you are feeling better.

Jermery,

I know wilson did not hit the miata the order of cars was Harding,Amy, Rooke, Wright, the question at hand here is did Rooke have any damage. I could not tell if he was running at the end of the race from Ben's video. All and all i agree with Wilson approach He is a 3 time national champ and has do things in race car that most dream off. He is a true class action.

Jessie Goyette

[Doc Bro]

All and all i agree with Wilson approach He is a 3 time national champ and has do things in race car that most dream off. He is a true class action.

Jessie Goyette

No doubt; if you want to be humbled you should see him in the rain at Lime Rock, it's just not fair....

BTW in my opinion after watching the video the white Miata simply had no situational awareness. That section of track is fast with plenty of grip and room, making a "true" apex not vital in the purest sense. He could have maitained his position (and let the overtaking cars go) without losing any speed or track position to the cars he was racing. My guess is he was too busy looking at his speedometer to see how fast he was going so he could tell his friends. Really preventable, and a shame to tear up good race cars and risk others safety and wellbeing.

How did the Miarta fair in terms of damage?

R

[wwrightjr]

Jessie and Doc, It is very nice of you to make these comments. Thank You. Jeremy, as per our conversation today I believe this is what happened. When the Miata got turned to drivers right, Greg moved to the left and got control of the car. Within this 1 to 2 second period the Miata which is still broadside to the track comes back to hit the Integra in the side. This allows Matt to get by. After Matts exit the Miata moves to drivers right, still broadside coming across the track. This is where I decide to go drivers right to avoid hitting the Miata. As the Miata now has moved mostly to the right the rest of the field goes by. And the Miata hits the right rail. The first hit on the Integra is the Miata. The second is the Integra hitting the rail. Wilson.