What is a "touring car?"

[Knestis]

GT cars - Grand Touring - come in all shapes and sizes so the inclusion of "sports cars" in GTL (et al.) isn't the conceptual issue that it is if GT cars are plopped in with touring cars. And I'd argue that the same problem I describe here exists in Improved Touring but I don't really care anymore.

But most importantly, to the question of "limiting the audience," my point is that we de facto limit the audience by allowing GT/sports cars in ST. We allow a tiny handful of make/model options and give them enough of an advantage that they beat out the DOZENS of 2- and 4-door chassis out there that might well be competitive and interesting, were they not prejudiced against by the fundamentals of the rules and listings. (Number of doors, by the way, hasn't been a general criterion for definition of touring cars around the world.) The way things are headed right now, absent any intervention, the future is STL populated with modded Miatas. Why would anyone build anything else at this point?

The CURRENT grids shouldn't however be used to gauge any kind of success, with the ITA/SM double dippers making up the numbers. People most emphatically did *not* build those cars for STL; they run the class out of convenience. Tailoring the rules to encourage them to do that is going to result in a very one-dimensional class.

In STU, something close to a dealer-showroom Lotus will beat up on a purpose-built AWD turbo sedan, or exotic multivalve "real" touring car. And it's not an economical solution, either.

Looking at some numbers, the interior volume of a typical coupe/sedan in the 4-cylinder, 4-person people hauler is about 2x that of the Miatas and Lotuses. That's not a close thing. The one interesting anomaly is the RX8, with more interior volume than (for example) the new Civic Coupe that has run STL.

K

[benspeed]

Love the thread! Would those little excuses for backseats in a 968/44 count? Lol

[cjb25hs]

Love the thread! Would those little excuses for backseats in a 968/44 count? Lol

Alot more interior volume than a miata or lotus

[backformore]

For what it's worth, which is slightly less than nothing, I agree with Kirk and like the direction he is headed. When I decided to convert my SSC Civic to something else, part of the motivation was the creation of STL which looked like a class that was designed for "tuner" cars, which are often "touring" cars and maybe even aimed at FWD. As time has marched on though, it appears that the evolution of the class, whatever the motivating factors, keeps moving away from my first impressions. Heck, I just noticed my car's engine has been penalized. Not that I'm aware of a 1.6 liter anything showing any dominance anywhere.

At the last STL race at Rd Atl (my home track), the car to beat was, surprise, a Miata. Don't get me wrong, I love the miata. I am, however, getting kinda tired of every class, new or old, being dominated by them. Kudos to Mazda for building such a kick-ass car.

So, I am for a 4 seat/interior volume or some other criteria to make STL a class for "other than sports cars". Like Kirk said, you eliminate a few options while making a large number of cars suddenly viable.

[Andy Bettencourt]

For what it's worth, which is slightly less than nothing, I agree with Kirk and like the direction he is headed. When I decided to convert my SSC Civic to something else, part of the motivation was the creation of STL which looked like a class that was designed for "tuner" cars, which are often "touring" cars and maybe even aimed at FWD. As time has marched on though, it appears that the evolution of the class, whatever the motivating factors, keeps moving away from my first impressions. Heck, I just noticed my car's engine has been penalized. Not that I'm aware of a 1.6 liter anything showing any dominance anywhere.

At the last STL race at Rd Atl (my home track), the car to beat was, surprise, a Miata. Don't get me wrong, I love the miata. I am, however, getting kinda tired of every class, new or old, being dominated by them. Kudos to Mazda for building such a kick-ass car.

So, I am for a 4 seat/interior volume or some other criteria to make STL a class for "other than sports cars". Like Kirk said, you eliminate a few options while making a large number of cars suddenly viable.

- your engine probably didn't get penalized in the context of everything getting more weight too
- actually I think the class is trying to keep it within your first impressions. Weight for RWD has been added since inception
- You take away the Miata from STL and you would be surprised what you had...23 cars at the Glen Majors...4 were non-Otters. Of those 19 Otters, I bet no more than 4 were real STL cars...maybe 3.

It's a displacement to weight class with adders for 'stuff'. That's a cool concept. If we need a FWD car to win, we should have never allowed other platforms in. I say enjoy the revenue stream with one eye on the cash and the other on competitive balance...and I think the PTB are doing that now.

[StephenB]

At least my RX8 is a 4 door :-)

[Andy Bettencourt]

I honestly think you could break them out if you really wanted an 'interior volume' minimum for STL. But is the core market there? Maybe!

[Greg Amy]

...the car to beat was, surprise, a Miata. Don't get me wrong, I love the miata. I am, however, getting kinda tired of every class, new or old, being dominated by them.

...23 cars at the Glen Majors...4 were non-Otters. Of those 19 Otters, I bet no more than 4 were real STL cars...maybe 3.

QFT.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Are people not building other cars for the class "because Miata" or are Miatas simply dominant in double-dipping numbers because no one else is building cars? Which is the cause, and which is the effect? What happened to all the "this is gonna be a FWD Honda class!!!" STL hand-wringing back when the Miatas weighed something like 4% less than they do now (and weren't even yet developed for the class)...?

I am personally aware of a few competitors that are actively choosing to not participate in STL "because Miata". And I'm also aware of some, active in STL, who are looking for alternative classes that do not have Miatas. STU is hurting overall, but I hear the same stories from competitors about the Lotus in there.

Miatas are wonderful cars. I went to the WGI Inner and Outer Loop and watched the SM race this past weekend and I was f*****g amazed at how fast they blasted through there. Shocked, actually. Even the slowest of the group was going through there gangbusters. And I immediately recognized that there's no way my big car would ever do that, certainly not consistently, short of my not caring about bringing it home intact (or having to worry about paying for it afterward). And the pointy-end SM double-dippers creamed me through there in the races.

Miatas bring the numbers and the revenue; of that there is absolutely no doubt. But as rulemakers and leaders, should that be our over-riding goal? If so, I'm quite certain we could create many more classes for these cars and increase our revenues even more. Hell, let's look into getting rid of all those other pesky classes and focus on what's really important to the Club (he says, quite tongue-in-cheek).

So...chicken, or egg...? I'm sure everyone will have their own opinion on that.

GA, who recognizes this discussion at this point as nothing more than IT.com paddock blah-blah...

[adamjabaay]

as someone who just started a honda STL build, and a weird one (just brought engine to machine guy, a 1.5 sohc, shooting to be just a tad over 2klbs, becausetinymotor), the "miata" problem sort of concerns me, but I'm buildiing this car to be easy on consumables, and fun, as half my use for it will be during HPDE stuff I organize or instruct at, yet I want it to be competative, and its looking like it might be


those dumb little miatas are awesome cars. I REALLY wish I wanted one....because they are so good

[Andy Bettencourt]

QFT.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Are people not building other cars for the class "because Miata" or are Miatas simply dominant in double-dipping numbers because no one else is building cars? Which is the cause, and which is the effect? What happened to all the "this is gonna be a FWD Honda class!!!" STL hand-wringing back when the Miatas weighed something like 4% less than they do now (and weren't even yet developed for the class)...?

I am personally aware of a few competitors that are actively choosing to not participate in STL "because Miata". And I'm also aware of some, active in STL, who are looking for alternative classes that do not have Miatas. STU is hurting overall, but I hear the same stories from competitors about the Lotus in there.

Miatas are wonderful cars. I went to the WGI Inner and Outer Loop and watched the SM race this past weekend and I was f*****g amazed at how fast they blasted through there. Shocked, actually. Even the slowest of the group was going through there gangbusters. And I immediately recognized that there's no way my big car would ever do that, certainly not consistently, short of my not caring about bringing it home intact (or having to worry about paying for it afterward). And the pointy-end SM double-dippers creamed me through there in the races.

Miatas bring the numbers and the revenue; of that there is absolutely no doubt. But as rulemakers and leaders, should that be our over-riding goal? If so, I'm quite certain we could create many more classes for these cars and increase our revenues even more. Hell, let's look into getting rid of all those other pesky classes and focus on what's really important to the Club (he says, quite tongue-in-cheek).

So...chicken, or egg...? I'm sure everyone will have their own opinion on that.

GA, who recognizes this discussion at this point as nothing more than IT.com paddock blah-blah...

It's an interesting debate for sure. What I don't like about it is that a well built and well driven STL should beat every one of the double-dippers. What is the REAL 'because Miata' issue? To me (and I only know the Drago and Farbman cars) 90% of the Miatas out there are double dipping. A class that can hold 19 card-carrying, entry-paying drivers that doesn't upset the competitive balance gets a resounding HELL YES from me...and it should from everyone who likes their entry fees where they are and their participation numbers way above average.

Then there is the mindset of the current drivers and prospective drivers. I would think they would love the 'goal' of beating all the double dippers and then targeting the real cars at the front as the second tier goal. Now as far as the Drago car goes, drivers have to realize that this is a multi-time National Champ, in that chassis with now 3 years of development in motor, suspension and aero. Is it a Miata problem really or a Drago problem?

No offense meant here but I think the Miata issue in STL is BS and almost an excuse. Drivers SHOULD be able to beat 90% of the field with driver talent and a well prepped car...fact. Now if the issue is about one cars build and driver skill - and we think there are other FWD 'touring' builds out there with equal development and driver skills that can't compete...then that is another topic completely. And a Comp adjustment is the answer if it's warranted.

[JS154]

The way things are headed right now, absent any intervention, the future is STL populated with modded Miatas. Why would anyone build anything else at this point?

Yes, I see this as a problem. The Miata and the K20 and , well nothing else makes any sense to consider for STL.

In STU, something close to a dealer-showroom Lotus will beat up on a purpose-built AWD turbo sedan, or exotic multivalve "real" touring car. And it's not an economical solution, either.



K

Disagree, my car and Irish Mike's car can bring the fight to the Lotus, if driven perfectly and built to the limit of the rules. The Lotus is easy to regulate though pulley size. I don't have an issue with the Lotus in there at all. I dO have an issue being stuck in a run group with a gazillion Miatae and B-Spec cars. What's Heinricy and Lipperini hitting on the back straight at WGI? 110 in a draft with a tailwind? You put three Miatae together and awareness of the world around them evaporates to only their own little microcosm.

STU is not economical. Aftermarket ECU's, sequentials, relocated suspension pickup points, unlimited shocks. That's easily $60K for those items alone, and you still need the rest of the car to hang those bits off of.

STU is so expensive it will never be a big class. The only way to really get it bigger is slash the cost to compete (eliminate modified/alternate gearboxes and dry sumps and relocated pickup points) - which is effectively STL. There's a gazillion E36 and E46 BMWs that should be running in STU. Where are they? Nasa GTS I'm afraid.

[Greg Amy]

Disagree, my car and Irish Mike's car can bring the fight to the Lotus. The Lotus is easy to regulate though pulley size.

So you're advocating crippling a 4-cyl sports car's advantages in a field of large-displacement touring cars via targeted spec-line power reductions? Note Kirk's premise of "all else being equal"; can you think of any other ~200hp car that would be competitive in STU?

And how does that category philosophy translate to STL, given we are generally not crippling cars' engine output (except for 2L cars)?

GA, wondering if we're heading for category-wide individual spec lines a lot faster than we think...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally Posted by Knestis

The way things are headed right now, absent any intervention, the future is STL populated with modded Miatas. Why would anyone build anything else at this point?

I reject this statement.

There is exactly one, ONE uber-prepped and driven Miata in STL. It has a National Champ driver as it's pilot. Is this setting a trend? The fields are double dippers, not track record setters. Yes, we (FOM) like to build our own stuff and don't have a customer who wants to drop the coin to develop the BP 1.8 into what it needs so we went with what we knew, a trick 13B conversion. Plenty quick but limited in it's development for power. Given it's power to weight, I am not sure it would smash any solid records. Maybe Steve E can find us 15whp!

Maybe we will see 20 Drago-prepped STL cars out there soon. But I'd like to see the other stuff keep coming. Greg has proven you can podium at a Major and is as fast as our 13B car.

[Greg Amy]

Greg has proven you can podium at a Major and is as fast as our 13B car.

I reject this statement. I had to work my ass off to get there, whereas as Jon made several big mistakes (missed shifts, overcooking corners/braking) and was able to easily move back to the fore and pass without issue. Just compare my front and rear views of him coming up on me and going into corners, versus my unable to come up on him on the straights. Had Jon not made those mistakes he would have been right up there in the front, possibly for the win.

That aside...it's a trend Andy, anyone paying attention can see it. Kirk is not using single examples to make general conclusions, he's using general trends to make single conclusions. How is it that Spec Miatas are able to fill out the middle of the field, to the point where they're beating almost all non-Miatas (the few there are)? Hell, Gorriaran was chewing on my ass on Saturday at WGI, despite my easy 50hp advantage; only reason he wasn't doing it Sunday is because he went home (along with a large chunk of the other SM'ers, leaving the top third of our class pretty empty).

And if double-dippers (who are not serious about the class such that they're leaving before the race) are taking away positions from legit STL competitors, how is that good for the class? And if it's not good for the class, why should we promote it? I'd gladly give up the 4th in participation numbers in order to improve the competition among legit, serious STL competitors. And I've been quite public that I'd rather the class stand or fall based on legit competitors, versus falsely riding a wave of double-dippers.

Chicken or egg?

GA, always amused at how "most competitors have excuses on why they lost...Miatas always have excuses on why they won."

[Andy Bettencourt]

I reject this statement. I had to work my ass off to get there, whereas as Jon made several big mistakes (missed shifts, overcooking corners/braking) and was able to easily move back to the fore and pass without issue. Just compare my front and rear views of him coming up on me and going into corners, versus my unable to come up on him on the straights. Had Jon not made those mistakes he would have been right up there in the front, possibly for the win.

Your fast lap bested his?

That aside...it's a trend Andy, anyone paying attention can see it. Kirk is not using single examples to make general conclusions, he's using general trends to make single conclusions.

What trends? The fact 2 really well prepared full-on STL cars are getting to the podium against 3 other cars? What about Shanfeld's Civic? No mention of that performance yet. Qualified .002 behind Drago in Q1 and ahead of him in Q2. Drago won race 1 by .290 over Shanfeld (who ran a faster lap time). In the second race, Drago again bested Shanfeld this time by 2.987 seconds and also had the fastest lap just over .2. Your fast laps in both races were faster than the 13B Miata.

How is it that Spec Miatas are able to fill out the middle of the field, to the point where they're beating almost all non-Miatas (the few there are)? Hell, Gorriaran was chewing on my ass on Saturday at WGI, despite my easy 50hp advantage; only reason he wasn't doing it Sunday is because he went home (along with a large chunk of the other SM'ers, leaving the top third of our class pretty empty).

At the Glen there were 4 non-Miata. 1 got crashed out and 2 were in the top 4. Trend?

2400lb SM's with 120whp too fast? You out qualified him by a second each day. Shanfeld's Civic was 3 seconds quicker in qualifying than any SM and 2.5 seconds quicker per lap in the race.

And if double-dippers (who are not serious about the class such that they're leaving before the race) are taking away positions from legit STL competitors, how is that good for the class? And if it's not good for the class, why should we promote it? I'd gladly give up the 4th in participation numbers in order to improve the competition among legit, serious STL competitors. And I've been quite public that I'd rather the class stand or fall based on legit competitors, versus falsely riding a wave of double-dippers.

You can't take away a spot from a legit competitor if you don't show up to race. Looking at the numbers, STL is third in participation behind SRF and SM. If 20% of the fields were real STL cars and ZERO double dippers, STL would be 2nd from the bottom with about 61 entries Nationwide. I'm ok with that but hardly a ringing endorsement of success just above B-Spec.

GA, always amused at how "most competitors have excuses on why they lost...Miatas always have excuses on why they won."

AB, always amused at how fast 'some give up when they see a Miata on grid no matter what like cars are doing'

Seriously though, I see a wickedly fast Miata and a wickedly fast Civic right on top of each other battling for top Q spot, fast laps and race wins. And I mean RIGHT ON TOP OF EACH OTHER. A trend it is not in my mind. Will I always think that a light, balanced and DW-equipped car will make a better racecar than a FWD car? You bet, but that's why they currently weigh 5.5% more than good FWDers and 8% more than strut FWDers.

[Greg Amy]

Andy, I'm not gonna blow-by-blow you. No insult intended but you weren't there, all you have is finishing results and a couple of videos. Come spend some time with us at the track (we actually do miss you; well, at least the chance to bust your stones...) and watch with us.

You remind me a lot of George Roffe in the early-aughts. We kept talking (on this board and elsewhere) about how f*****g fast the E36 BMWs were in ITS, and George was always all about "but look at the results! Look at the lap times! Hey, look, Joe DiMinno won ITS at Watkins Glen in a Sentra!" and we were all about "hey, dude, come to the track with us." Then one year George went to the ARRC and came back home all "Jeesum krist those cars a f*****g FAST!!!" and the next year (or so) we had SIRs on 'em...

Ain't nuthin' like being there, brother...

GA

[Knestis]

Rory makes some good points, that helped clarify some things for me.

Despite the fact that I don't think "field fillers" are a good policy solution, the concept of SMs (and IT) running in STL doesn't really give me any major concern. They should, indeed, not be competitive. And the "fun to race with while developing" point is a good one. I said the same thing when explaining to someone (Eric maybe) about why I chose the Civic in STL over continuing with the STU Jetta.

It WAS helpful to be reminded that the question about 2-seaters in PROPERLY PREPARED STL CARS is a separate issue from the SM/IT crossover allowance. Basic chassis architecture of "real" cars built for the class is the primary issue I'm worried about, and it's one that I still think we might nip in the bud when only a few cars in the nation actually qualify as such.

Also (because it seems to have been assumed somewhere along the line) please note that I don't think the "touring" model has got be exclusively FWD. We should be able to quantify and accommodate with adjusters the differences there. The sum contribution of being an entirely different type of tub, not so much.

Andy - with respect, you're making some pretty broad generalizations here based on one race. None of my arguments are based on lap times.

K

[Knestis]

Part of the reason STL is attractive to me is that it's not a "spec-line special" class. Spec-line CAs invite what I dislike most about Club Racing - the classing/specification shenanigans and the massive incentive for backroom dealing that goes with it. Greg's note reminds me that I shouldn't get too attached to the idea that STL might be less crappy in that regard.

My point is that without the 'cars people like to race', there is almost no class. 4 cars at the Major? Then we revert to Greg's point. Were there only 4 cars there because of Drago and his Miata or was it because of the 15 SM's that were double-dipping on some weird principle issue? If it was a Miata issue at all. If it was, lets decipher between the BS reason and the legit reason. ...

Take the longer view - with the admission that I see value in classes that offer variety... The grid last weekend isn't as important as what the grid might look like 3-5 years. The way it is now, there's a built-in incentive - again, physics - to build a 2-seat STL car over a 4-seat STL car, and there are damned few options. That's going to influence make/model variety in the class, and so its appeal, I think. Why use a spot in a class to satisfy the interests of someone who's already running their "regular class" on any weekend, that might appeal to someone who would 'like to race' a mildly modified, 4-cylinder Toyota, Nissan, VW, Hyundai, Ford, Chevy, Kia, etc. sedan, hatch, or coupe that isn't otherwise accommodated somewhere in the mix? Someone who looks at the math is going to know that's a fool's errand. Someone who votes with his heart is going to see a class that doesn't fit their vision of what they want to do.

The real problem here is the CRB and their desire to allow 'field fillers' into new classes to boost numbers and profits. If we wanted STL to be a FWD piston-based class, then they should have locked it down from the beginning and let it sink or swim on it's own. It takes balls to do that and you have to believe 100% in your class concept. Personally I think it would fail. Would anyone build anything other than a Honda if it was just FWD? Isn't that just Honda Challenge? Would the CRB make CA's to entice other platforms to be competitive with their strut-based chassis? Then if they are, do we have the same problem we 'have' now? (Now I'm just playing things out hypothetically)

The "make up the numbers" game is a loser, ultimately, and yes - I DO indeed think that STL should have been held to what it was originally envisioned to be, without letting the sports car (and rotary) camel's nose under the tent flap. It's matters of degree, I admit, but differences in general engine architecture could have been dealt with well enough on a formulaic basis (not making the leap to make/model spec lines) to get a bunch of options in the same ballpark, if there were all FWD platforms of the same basic dimensions. The rotary experiences in IT should have told us that the point at which a categorical adjustment (struts/DWB, FWD/RWD, etc.) bear on only ONE case in a class, things can get stupid right quick...

K

[backformore]

I really like that people are talking and thinking about this.

At the risk of contradicting myself though, another thing that has been appealing about STL has been the large fields. I realize most are "fillers", but I kinda like having fillers. That means if you build or are building an actual STL car, you will have cars to race with while you develop your car since the field fillers tend to run the gamut from not particularly fast (for the class) to pretty darn fast for the class. I do think, however, that no "filler" car should, given comparable drivers, be able to beat a fully prepped STL car. I think SMs are a great choice for fillers because they do seem to turn times that require a good STL car with a good driver to beat, but likely can't really compete against a full tilt STL car.

The thing is, since a "filler" car is a specific exception to the rules, I don't think it has to meet the criteria for the class. Which is to say, just because you allow SMs as fillers, I don't think you have to make Miatas fit in STL. Conversely, if you don't allow Miatas in STL (by seats or volume or whatever), that does not mean you can't allow SMs as fillers. (or IT cars or anything else)

For the record, I know all of this is really difficult and I really appreciate the folks who take this on and I think they are doing and have done a great job. I am looking forward to getting my car on track and proving once again that the car is the least of my problems.

Rory

[JS154]

So you're advocating crippling a 4-cyl sports car's advantages in a field of large-displacement touring cars via targeted spec-line power reductions? Note Kirk's premise of "all else being equal"; can you think of any other ~200hp car that would be competitive in STU?

..

No. The point was the Lotus is an outlier - mid engine supercharged sports car (what about that says touring car to anyone? ) - no other Lotii engines or chassis to mix-n-match - the Lotus is easy to regulate competitiveness via pulley size. The rest of the 2-seater sports cars - not so much.