ITAC News.

[lateapex911]

Sounds like they didn't do much research on their C4 vette choice before commissioning the build. Of course it gets a weight adders for large displacement/low-RPM-power.

300 whp I don't believe. But I suspect you'll see north of 240 whp, with a torque curve that is flat like my desk and hitting the 280+ mark.

I am SURE they knew the 100 or 150 was coming. but I bet the 50 for DW surprised them.

(My recollection on the ITR tq thing was that it was discussed for MONTHS....like over 6 months.. What IS torque, how do you ID it? how much is too much? Is it the tq CURVE that counts? How can you FIND a the tq curve for every car. (if you can't then it's not applicable ), is it a relationship to HP? Do you stick a low hp car with the penalty if it has high tq? Or just high hp AND high tq cars. What about the transmission? LOTS of debate.
Then there was the 'if it has a lot of tq, does it get a graduated adder?' question. 50, 100, 150.? If so, how do you decide? What are the break points?
In the end, I think the committee decided it was too difficult to identify levels of tq, and a procedure for that was deemed impossible with the resources at hand, and decided that it was one of those things you knew it when you saw it, but couldn't really describe. (This was around the time I left the committee, I think, so anyone with better facts feel free to correct me)
I think, in the end it was just simplified with a "we will know it when we see it, and if we see it it's getting 150" kinda thing.)

I know a lot of that discussion IS in the notes on the board

[Ron Earp]

Then there was the 'if it has a lot of tq, does it get a graduated adder?' question. 50, 100, 150.? If so, how do you decide?

Well, if the 5L Pony cars got 100lbs, which they did as I recall, then for damn sure the 5.7L Corvette should get at least 100 lbs.

Process weight for the 94/95 Mustang GT at 215 stock hp is 3090 lbs using 11.5 as the hp/wt target. The ITCS listed weight is 3195, so it looks like it picked up 105 lbs somewhere.

[JeffYoung]

Multiplier in ITR is 11.25 so that probably explains the random 5 lbs.

It most likely got 150 lbs for torque because it then had 50 deducted for the live rear.

That car will get dickstomped by a C4 Vette with more torque, equivalent if not more power, lower weight, better aero, lower CG and better suspension.

[Ron Earp]

Multiplier in ITR is 11.25 so that probably explains the random 5 lbs.

It most likely got 150 lbs for torque because it then had 50 deducted for the live rear.

That car will get dickstomped by a C4 Vette with more torque, equivalent if not more power, lower weight, better aero, lower CG and better suspension.

Well, I thought it was 11.25 and did the calculations but they are even more off. I convinced myself it was 11.5.

If it is 11.25 then:

215 x 1.25 x 11.25 = 3023 lbs. Spec weight is 3195, so the difference is 172 lbs. Where did the 172 lb adder come from? And the other V8 cars have trouble too.

1996-1998 Mustang at 225 stock hp, the weight is 3164. But it is listed in the ITCS at 3390 lbs! Where did the 225 lbs adder come from?

87-98 Camaro, 230 stock hp, the weight is 3234 lbs. Listed weight is 3465 lbs, a 230 lb adder. What for?

All there of these cars are off weight calculated using standard procedures. I got a feeling there is more wrong in ITR than just double wishbone cars.

[JeffYoung]

Ditto. However, while I have not checked, I'm pretty sure the first v8s were run through at either 30 or 35%.

We did the Vette at 25% since we don't have any real build data for it, but I suspect that number is low.

Well, I thought it was 11.25 and did the calculations but they are even more off. I convinced myself it was 11.5.

If it is 11.25 then:

215 x 1.25 x 11.25 = 3023 lbs. Spec weight is 3195, so the difference is 172 lbs. Where did the 172 lb adder come from? And the other V8 cars have trouble too.

1996-1998 Mustang at 225 stock hp, the weight is 3164. But it is listed in the ITCS at 3390 lbs! Where did the 225 lbs adder come from?

87-98 Camaro, 230 stock hp, the weight is 3234 lbs. Listed weight is 3465 lbs, a 230 lb adder. What for?

I got a feeling there is more wrong in ITR than just double wishbone cars.

[Greg Amy]

Let not one person on this forum complain again that the ITAC works behind closed doors in smoke-filled rooms...

There's a reason you don't want to watch sausage being made.

[JeffYoung]

Amen bro. And more and more making the freaking sausage ain't much fun.

Driving the sausage is.

Let not one person on this forum complain again that the ITAC works behind closed doors in smoke-filled rooms...

There's a reason you don't want to watch sausage being made.

[Z3_GoCar]

Let not one person on this forum complain again that the ITAC works behind closed doors in smoke-filled rooms...

There's a reason you don't want to watch sausage being made.

I bet you posted that while behind closed doors in a smoke filled room.

Welcome to Las Vegas, I hope the wind wasn't too bad while you were outside.

[Ron Earp]

Ditto. However, while I have not checked, I'm pretty sure the first v8s were run through at either 30 or 35%.

We did the Vette at 25% since we don't have any real build data for it, but I suspect that number is low.

I suspect the Pony car gains are speced too high.

At 30%
94/95 Mustang 3144 lbs, spec of 3195. Looks like 50 lb tq adder.
96-98 Mustang 3290 lbs, spec of 3390. Looks like 100 lb tq adder.
87-92 Camaro 3363 lbs, spec of 3465. Looks like 100 lb tq adder.

At 35%
94/95 Mustang 3265lbs, spec of 3195.
96-98 Mustang 3417lbs, spec of 3390.
87-92 Camaro 3493lbs, spec of 3465.

So, 30% seems like where they were speced and it looks like torque adders were inconsistent and axle deducts were not applied at all, neither was a strut deduct.

[lateapex911]

Ditto. However, while I have not checked, I'm pretty sure the first v8s were run through at either 30 or 35%.

We did the Vette at 25% since we don't have any real build data for it, but I suspect that number is low.

The first camaros, etc, (thanks for the work on those Ron and Jeff...(for those that don't know, Ron was very ehlfpul with the data and provided a proposal to get these cars into ITR)) was, as you know, hotly contested.
There were those on the committee who thought they'd make huge power. or they didn't belong because they'd be too easy to cheat up, etc. OR that they should get a 40% factor because they'd all be cheated up and impossible to police. Sheesh, it was crazy, LOL.

In the end, they got what I thought was an aggressive factor, either 30 or 35%. Andy?

[Andy Bettencourt]

In the end, they got what I thought was an aggressive factor, either 30 or 35%. Andy?

My memories ain't free anymore. Setting up a PayPal account.

[Ron Earp]

In the end, they got what I thought was an aggressive factor, either 30 or 35%. Andy?

We need to be consistent with the V8s. Either run the vette through like the Pony cars were or fix them all. They are clearly askew now.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Well, I thought it was 11.25 and did the calculations but they are even more off. I convinced myself it was 11.5.

If it is 11.25 then:

215 x 1.25 x 11.25 = 3023 lbs. Spec weight is 3195, so the difference is 172 lbs. Where did the 172 lb adder come from? And the other V8 cars have trouble too.

1996-1998 Mustang at 225 stock hp, the weight is 3164. But it is listed in the ITCS at 3390 lbs! Where did the 225 lbs adder come from?

87-98 Camaro, 230 stock hp, the weight is 3234 lbs. Listed weight is 3465 lbs, a 230 lb adder. What for?

All there of these cars are off weight calculated using standard procedures. I got a feeling there is more wrong in ITR than just double wishbone cars.

First, we have established through the history that there is nothing wrong with the DW classifications - except the Vette. There is no DW adder in ITR.

Second, there is no strut deduction in ITR for RWD cars. Just FWD cars. Also established.

All those V8's were done at 30%. The CRB was NOT going to let them in without that number. Sucked but we said we would do it and then change it when we had numbers to back us up.

215 @ 30% with a 50lb torque adder is right on.
225 @ 30% with 100lb torque adder is right on.
230 @ 30% with 100lb torque adder is right on.

[Ron Earp]

215 @ 30% with a 50lb torque adder is right on.
225 @ 30% with 100lb torque adder is right on.
230 @ 30% with 100lb torque adder is right on.

And a Vette:

205 @ 30% with 150lb torque adder, 3150 lbs, much lighter than some of the Pony cars. That doesn't pass the smell test. I seriously doubt that 350 inch motor won't see higher outputs than the 302/305 Ford/GM twins, plus it has better brakes, aero, and suspension (things we don't worry about in IT).

[JeffYoung]

Vette is at 25%.

[Andy Bettencourt]

And a Vette:

205 @ 30% with 150lb torque adder, 3150 lbs, much lighter than some of the Pony cars. That doesn't pass the smell test. I seriously doubt that 350 inch motor won't see higher outputs than the 302/305 Ford/GM twins, plus it has better brakes, aero, and suspension (things we don't worry about in IT).

Just based on cubic inches? Come on. The car was 205 stock vs. much more for those cars. The simple addition of the TPI manifold in 1985 bumped power 25hp!!! That's over 350lbs in ITR weight.

292mm brakes bro. That ain't that big. Take a stroll through the ITR ITCS...

If you were to class those Pony cars today (I would be writing my letter now), they would use 25%, COULD use a -50 for solid axle, and COULD use a deduction (or addition) for brake size.

[JoshS]

215 @ 30% with a 50lb torque adder is right on.
225 @ 30% with 100lb torque adder is right on.
230 @ 30% with 100lb torque adder is right on.

IIRC, and I'm pretty sure I do, they all have a 100lb torque adder. The 50lb difference on the one line is due to lousy brakes.

[Chip42]

IIRC, and I'm pretty sure I do, they all have a 100lb torque adder. The 50lb difference on the one line is due to lousy brakes.

the spreadsheet shows -50 for brakes, -50 solid axle, and +150 torque on the 89-93/94-95 mustangs, same without brake adjust on the 87-92 camarobirds. they all use a 30% gain and all match the GCR. mustang weight difference is the result of 10hp: (10*1.3*11.25=146.3)

the only +100 tq adder in there is for the V6 94-98 'stang

this is the doc from Kirk Knestis, created march 2008 (thanks to KK for this)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Well, if the 5L Pony cars got 100lbs, which they did as I recall, then for damn sure the 5.7L Corvette should get at least 100 lbs.

Process weight for the 94/95 Mustang GT at 215 stock hp is 3090 lbs using 11.5 as the hp/wt target. The ITCS listed weight is 3195, so it looks like it picked up 105 lbs somewhere.

There is a graduated scale. 50-100-150.

ITR pw/weight is 11.25 not 11.5.