The demise of ITR at WDC

[benspeed]

I'm with John - classing ITR in Big Bore is a bust. I asked about moving it out before MARRS I this year and was told the rationale for why it runs with Big Bore. Being a good citizen I supported that but after the race I confirmed to the other ITR guys - no thanks, not coming back for more...

[JeffYoung]

ITR runs fine with S and A and IT7 in SEDiv and I would think that is the natural place for it.

[yannisalex2000]

ITR runs fine with S and A and IT7 in SEDiv and I would think that is the natural place for it.

That's why I am going to be racing with you guys really soon.

[Knestis]

I'm with John - classing ITR in Big Bore is a bust. I asked about moving it out before MARRS I this year and was told the rationale for why it runs with Big Bore. Being a good citizen I supported that but after the race I confirmed to the other ITR guys - no thanks, not coming back for more...

So out of curiosity, what was the rationale?

K

[Gregg]

ITR was moved to Big Bore for the '09 season--the same time the MARRS weekend contracted from 10 (yes 10) run groups to eight. The last year that ITR ran with ITA and ITS there was an average of two ITR cars (the same as '08). The faster of the two ITR cars commonly would lap all but one ITA car twice. This was at a time when the ITR field was not running, shall we say top notch builds. The ITR car that commonly won was running slower laps than Ed York's pre-Great Alignment ITS E36.

At the time of the contraction, the ITA/IT7/T3/SRX7 group was averaging over 40 cars (w/ a max of 50), and the ITS/ITB/SS group also averaged over 40 cars. ITR, with only two cars average was placed in BB, which:

• Was averaging < 25 cars
• Was averaging two GT1 cars
• Would place ITR in with speed-comparable cars

ITR remained at a three car average until the owner of one of the cars sold his only race car (he remains of the region's BoD), and one decided to put the restrictor his E36 and run ITS due to the larger (10+ car) fields. The 3rd car is the O.P. here.

The region moved to nine run groups last year in order to split Small Bore and SRF separately, but the number of non-ITR cars in Big Bore has dropped drastically in the past two years. The chief complaint we heard from the few ITR cars running was an issue running in the same run group as American Sedan. We are currently averaging two AS cars in BB.

So to put things in perspective there are really three MARRS run groups that ITR could currently be placed in:

1. ITS/ITB/ITC/SS -- Most of the ITB cars lose at least one lap currently, many lose two. If you place the few ITR cars in this run group, you have what is regularly the largest ITB field in the nation losing three or more laps per race. As for the ITC cars, they would likely encounter the same speed differential to the ITR cars as the ITR cars have with GT1 cars.
2. ITA/IT7/SRX7/T3 -- You will have approx. 20 ITA cars losing at least one lap, and if past history is an indicator, at least 15 will lose two laps per race.
3. BB -- the three current ITR cars would lose, at most, one lap and would be running in run group with far less density than the other two.

For the record, we did not consider placing ITR in the 40+ car SSM run group or the 35+ car SM run group.

Since Day 1 the ITR drivers have pitched the reason to be removed from BB as a safety issue. Given the dearth of GT1 cars running at the regional level (and in the MARRS series in particular), the fact that AS traditionally runs in BB w/ the same lap times w/out a perceived safety issue, as well as the sheer lack of density in that run group, the region's Club Racing Committee (CRC), which is made up of representatives from each run group as well as each of the volunteer specialties, decided to keep ITR in that run group for '11, even with lower overall turnout for events in '10.

Might the number of ITR cars increased w/out the move to BB? Perhaps, but we saw no change in the number of entrants post-move from pre-move and when coordinating our events need to plan for the interests of all of our racers. And frankly, 50 ITA/ITB/ITC/IT7/SRX7 drivers should have the same right to a good racing experience that the three ITR racers do.

[lateapex911]

Interesting gregg, and thanks for the insight.

I see a contradiction though. You are using the number of laps lost as the main determining factor, yet you pointed out that the ITR cars are running slower than the fast ITS lap times. Would putting them in the ITS group really mess up the ITB guys that much?

Locally at Lime Rock, the lead car is often an ITS car, over the ITRs. Summit is a longer track, so I'd expect the ITRs to be faster than the ITS cars, but thats not always the case.

[Gregg]

Interesting gregg, and thanks for the insight.

I see a contradiction though. You are using the number of laps lost as the main determining factor, yet you pointed out that the ITR cars are running slower than the fast ITS lap times. Would putting them in the ITS group really mess up the ITB guys that much?

Locally at Lime Rock, the lead car is often an ITS car, over the ITRs. Summit is a longer track, so I'd expect the ITRs to be faster than the ITS cars, but thats not always the case.

What I thought I said is that they were running slower than Ed York's pre-Great Realignment ITS times.

[JeffYoung]

Ed's car was an unrestricted E36?

What I thought I said is that they were running slower than Ed York's pre-Great Realignment ITS times.

[TAC]

Well I must admit I am perplexed that we are three weeks away from the I.T.FEST and not one ITR has signed up. Usually we have a couple by now topping out at 6 max.

[seckerich]

Ed's car was an unrestricted E36?

Very unrestricted as in 2.12 VIR practice.

[StephenB]

1. ITS/ITB/ITC/SS -- Most of the ITB cars lose at least one lap currently, many lose two. If you place the few ITR cars in this run group, you have what is regularly the largest ITB field in the nation losing three or more laps per race. As for the ITC cars, they would likely encounter the same speed differential to the ITR cars as the ITR cars have with GT1 cars.
2. ITA/IT7/SRX7/T3 -- You will have approx. 20 ITA cars losing at least one lap, and if past history is an indicator, at least 15 will lose two laps per race.
3. BB -- the three current ITR cars would lose, at most, one lap and would be running in run group with far less density than the other two.

I would be shocked if the ITR cars started lapping the ITS cars. I just don't see that happening but I may be wrong.

I have always been a big fan of timed races rather than laps. We all pay the same entry fee and entry fees go towards rent of the track which in turn is based on time not laps. I see no reason an ITB car gets more track time than a GT1 car. This has never and probably will never make sense to me.

Just my .02 I would love to run summit maybe someday we can get a large enough feild to make it worth the trip... or maybe I will just bring the old Audi down and play in B

Stephen

[RedMisted]

I have always been a big fan of timed races rather than laps. We all pay the same entry fee and entry fees go towards rent of the track which in turn is based on time not laps. I see no reason an ITB car gets more track time than a GT1 car. This has never and probably will never make sense to me.

My thoughts exactly.

[StephenB]

My thoughts exactly.

I have raced in ITB for 11 years and the entire time I felt this way... even though I was in one of the slowest classes and would get the least amount of laps on any given weekend...

Stephen

[benspeed]

So out of curiosity, what was the rationale?

K

The rationale was that ITR was better suited to run with the big bore cars because of lap times, closing speeds and ITR drivers messing up the S and A races.

After the race I was of the opinion that those should be the reasons to move R back with S and A...can't comment on R guys messing up the races for S and A guys.

But what I respected was they drivers reps were very clear about communicating with me. They were very clear that this run group was the way they wanted it and they weren't changing. Sorta disappointing but hey, no shortage of places to race and it looks like the R guys from Summit have been coming to NJMP which is great for that track.

[Greg Amy]

There were so few ITR/S guys at NHMS this past weekend that the ITS guys agreed to pull out of Group 8 (ITS, ITR, IT and run with us in G4/STL. After qualifying the ITR guys tried to run in our group as STU, but the Chief Steward would not allow them to do it without an extra entry fee.

To be fair, it was a light attendance weekend overall; as I recall there was only one ITB entry.

GA

[yannisalex2000]

The rationale was that ITR was better suited to run with the big bore cars because of lap times, closing speeds and ITR drivers messing up the S and A races.

After the race I was of the opinion that those should be the reasons to move R back with S and A...can't comment on R guys messing up the races for S and A guys.

But what I respected was they drivers reps were very clear about communicating with me. They were very clear that this run group was the way they wanted it and they weren't changing. Sorta disappointing but hey, no shortage of places to race and it looks like the R guys from Summit have been coming to NJMP which is great for that track.

Ben if you bring me a video copy of MARRS 1 when I see you at the Glen I will bring you a nice picture of the two of us going into T1 during the race.

[benspeed]

Ben if you bring me a video copy of MARRS 1 when I see you at the Glen I will bring you a nice picture of the two of us going into T1 during the race.

Yannisalex - sent you a PM link of the race - shoot me the cool pic! (I don't think I posted it because I sorta made all the beggining of the season mistakes short of contact).

Dan - you told me I wouldn't like the grouping at SP and you were right. But I very much respect how the drivers reps and the region management want the groupings. I don't agree, but respect it. Pretty unlikely I'll go back which is a shame because I love the track - only been there three times and it's fast and technical and a fun place to figure out.

[Rob43]

Being one of the last ITR drivers at Summit Point, it is now a dead class there. I didn't even bother racing the first 4 races of the 2011 seasons, why would I spend all that money just to drive around the track by myself.

The instant the WDCR competition committee put ITR in BB, the end was near.



Rob #43 ITR BMW 325I

[Knestis]

...I have been hit by AS's as they used me for brakes @ T5 (and it wasn't because I was braking early) @ Summit, slow ass GT1's @ Mid Ohio, hit by flying tires from a GT1 car as he smashed into the tire wall not to mentioned that AS hate to let us by and have been hit by a T2 car @ Mid Ohio.

For about the zillionth time this kind of thing has come up, this is not a race group or class problem - this is a dumb-ass selfish driver problem.

There are lots of reasons to not like a particular group's make-up but "[whatever class] causes crashes" is simply not a fair representation of how this game works. Class stickers don't drive cars; drivers drive cars. And if the culture of a region is accepting of people being jerks, then you're going to find jerks all over the place.

K