Neat and clean appearance?

[pfcs]

"I think it looks fine... probably on the nicer end of most of the IT cars in the Midwest circuit. I raced all of '07 in an ITA car that looked the same or worse.

We're not all made of money and often times it doesn't make sense to do a bunch of body work on a $3k car between races when we know it's going to happen again. I can also assure you that the rule is written to keep a professional image for our sport, not to ensure that we all have show cars. As long as your car doesn't look like a demo-derby car from 50 feet away, you should be fine. I'd personally like the opportunity to tell your tech inspector where he can shove his GCR. "

I agree strongly and had the same experience at the same track. When I ended up in impound in 4th after the 94 ARRC the tech guys gave me the third degree about the neat and clean rule, telling me that if I returned in the same condition, I wouldn't be allowed to race. The car was raced all over the NE without any mention of neat/clean until then as well as later (95) phil

[dickita15]

I can also assure you that the rule is written to keep a professional image for our sport, not to ensure that we all have show cars. As long as your car doesn't look like a demo-derby car from 50 feet away, you should be fine.

I really don’t believe that is the whole reason. There is a school of thought that drivers who have body damage already are likely to try less to avoid future contact. I know in one SCCA division the stewards were trying to crack down on SM metal to metals and one tool they used was to write up all damage after every race. I am told it worked.

[JLawton]

two years ago ITA was impounded after a race and everyone written up who had body damage. I believe that it needed to be done by the next annual.

[Knestis]

It's also harder to determine if - or how - body damage might have occurred, if a car comes to an event pre-dented.

I'm not running the ARRC because I spent that part of the budget fixing major whangs from the Summit 12 and IT Festival of Fail. I personally think that it's a good rule and should be enforced more than it seems to be.

>> ...it doesn't make sense to do a bunch of body work on a $3k car between races when we know it's going to happen again.

I gotta say that this perspective is worrisome to me. We should NEVER collectively get to the point where it's a foregone conclusion that we're going to run into each other. The most likely outcome of that is that we WILL run into each other more often...

K

[ddewhurst]

For those tha view the Teg as looking ok please provide your base line for when a car is beyon what is accecptable to you. Please write your specification so that we the others may understand your base line. We ALL need the same written rule to follow.

[pfcs]

"Cars that Phil finds aesthetically unacceptable must be subject to this rule"

[ddewhurst]

"Cars that Phil finds aesthetically unacceptable must be subject to this rule"

..............^ that would be the issue. It's kind of

[raffaelli]

"Any car in worse condition than mine"

[John Nesbitt]

For those tha view the Teg as looking ok please provide your base line for when a car is beyon what is accecptable to you. Please write your specification so that we the others may understand your base line. We ALL need the same written rule to follow.

The GCR is fairly straightforward (emphasis added):

9.3.6. APPEARANCE NEAT/CLEAN & SUITABLE FOR COMPETITION

Appearance neat and clean, and suitable for competition. Specifically, cars that are dirty either externally or in the engine or passenger compartments, or that show bodywork damage, structural or surface rust, or that are partially or totally in primer, or that do not bear the prescribed identification marks shall not be approved for competition.

[erlrich]

I don't see any good reason why drivers should be showing up at races with cars that are not neat and clean, and free of body damage and presentable to our audiences. Between the prize money and the sponsor funding there is really no excuse...

[Greg Amy]

...free of body damage and presentable to our audiences. Between the prize money and the sponsor funding there is really no excuse...

!

[MMiskoe]

A quote from a friend of mine that I have always loved - "If you're serious about going racing for the seaon, at the end of March you go out and buy a gallon of bondo."

Its all relative. The only way I've ever had a tech guy back down from this is when you point out all the cars in the paddock that look worse than yours and ask why they don't have notes in their books.

The other thing to do is to try and get them to quantify it. Ask exactly which panels they feel need to be fixed. Usually they will back down a bit and point out the major parts and only write those up.

Like Ben said, bondo, spray can & some stickers. Also try to get the tech guy to look at it in the pouring rain.

[gran racing]

I’d race a car in that condition.

Throw some bondo on there, rattle can it, and throw some stickers over it.

I gave that route a shot and was called Bondo Boy for quite some time. LOL

For those tha view the Teg as looking ok please provide your base line for when a car is beyon what is accecptable to you.

We ALL need the same written rule to follow.

All subjective. Why don’t you write a rule how large a ding can be, how deep, how much paint can be scuffed, limit to which wheels can be dirty, how much dirt can be in the interior (maybe by weight?), and so on?

I guess now I better hope it rains cause my car isn’t lookn’ so pretty right now. Basically it comes down to two choices – I can sit out the last race of the year for me, or put that money aside to get the body damage repaired. I’m going off to the races.

[ddewhurst]

***All subjective. Why don’t you write a rule how large a ding can be, how deep, how much paint can be scuffed, limit to which wheels can be dirty, how much dirt can be in the interior (maybe by weight?), and so on?***

Someone was bound to use the proverbial word, "subjective". For those people there is a rule that had previously been posted. Please read the rule a second or third time & see if it covers your written questions above. My bet would be that the same people who believe pounding damage to some sort of approx shape with no finish work would change there habits if they took said car & stepped to the National level. or some of their newly aquired National peers would take them aside for a little brotherly love about what a car is expected to look like at the National level. I have never viewed cars with old damage like the Teg at the SCCA Regional level say nothing about the SCCA Natioanl level. I do see cars like the Teg at events sanctioned by orgs other than the SCCA.

The previously posted rule is:

****Rule 9.1.3.D.8.h. Body repair workshall be preformed using every reasonable effort to maintain stock body contours, lips, ect.***

IMHJ, stock body contours from the above rule would be as the car is finished by the manufacture. Now because some of you have nothing better to do than rag on the computer ask me how shinny the car needs to be. There is car finishing paint that has no gloss which looks like primer.

[steve b]

The GCR is fairly straightforward (emphasis added):

9.3.6. APPEARANCE NEAT/CLEAN & SUITABLE FOR COMPETITION

Appearance neat and clean, and suitable for competition. Specifically, cars that are dirty either externally or in the engine or passenger compartments, or that show bodywork damage, structural or surface rust, or that are partially or totally in primer, or that do not bear the prescribed identification marks shall not be approved for competition.

I might as well hang it up if my engine compartment needs to be neat and clean

[mc-integra111]

I was kinda waiting to hear back from SCCA officially before posting again, but I'll weigh in on some points. I'll be sure to keep this up to date when I officially hear from SCCA.

I am trying to use appeals and do this correctly. If this is SCCA's decision, I will abide by it as they are the organization and can set their own rules. To be fair, Tech did suggest the bondo solution (I don't like bondo as a fix) as an alternative. The executive also was willing to waive the notation for the rest of the year if I wanted to race with SCCA before year's end.

I don't like doing bodywork, so I would take this to someone else to fix. Plus, even with the proper paint code, I have a lot of trouble matching my 18 year old faded metallic paint. I have the money to fix this, so its not even a question of if I can or not, but I would rather give the money to SCCA for entry than a body shop.

I don't like the assumption that if the car is already damaged, then it would be more likely to be involved in further incidents. I think is is making an assumption about the driver that may not be fair since their is no proof of this. In defense of this, I clearly showed them the notation in the Council logbook that said it was a mechanical problem. Personally, I take exactly as much care of the car now (on and off track) as I did before the incident. Although I can see where SCCA is coming from, since they would now have to make another assumption about me that has no proof.

There is plenty of competition in Council races (at least in ITA). I would highly encourage any ITA driver in the Midwest to come out for an event. I am sure that the Council ITA driver's would like to race with new people.

And if anyone is curious, my council cohort has since had that notation removed from his logbook by an executive. I was actually standing right next to him when it happened and made a comment to the extent of "if they don't like that damage, what are they going to say about my car". I kinda assumed it was a national level thing, and the regional event wouldn't mind.

[jumbojimbo]

Wow Dave, that's the kind of inclusive attitude that really draws people in to our club. That's so over the top it's hard to tell if it's sarcasm. Yeah, I'm really going to be intimidated by some ahole at a national event because my bondo is cracked or my door edges don't line up. The nationals I've been to would be thrilled to have the entry fee. Another $500 less loss for the region? Sweet.

I'd say Teg already made a mistake by escalating this. The last thing you want to do is point at yourself. I'd have kept my mouth shut and found a less visible way to take care of it.

Shoot, take it to an event with a different tech inspector, perhaps one known to be friendly, and have him/her sign your current work as the "fix". Or at least soften it a bit by suggesting a permanent fix by next year.

At this point who is to say what exactly the original inspector was concerned with? If someone is going to jerk you around but not document what is required, then I'd say you have the right to use that lack of diligence.

It'd be worth a try anyway. Worst case you give a friendly laugh and promise to really fix it by next time or negotiate a winter fix. Show me a region that will send you home and I'll show you a region you don't want to spend your money with anyway.

Granted, I may not be fair characterizing the original tech inspector as jerking you around. He's just doing his job and as long as he's doing it in good faith, that's all we can ask.

Maybe I live in a different world, but so far my experience is that all of the officials at the events I've attended have been thrilled to see me and happy to help in any way possible. Sure, they could have been jerks when my transponder was weak, but they weren't. They were reasonable and helpful. I got to race, WOR got my cash and everybody is happy.

I plan on fixing my bodywork over the winter. If someone wants to complain about it before then, it's up to them if they don't need my entry fee. But I don't see that happening when regions are already losing money left and right on races.

I'm still waiting to hear from the Pintos.

jim

[ddewhurst]

***Wow Dave, that's the kind of inclusive attitude that really draws people in to our club. That's so over the top it's hard to tell if it's sarcasm.***

Jim, the post was aimed at the guy who used the word subjective................. There is clearly a rule for people to abide to when it's time to repair body damage. As I look at the situation the teck folks requested some action sooner over later.

***I plan on fixing my bodywork over the winter. If someone wants to complain about it before then, it's up to them if they don't need my entry fee. But I don't see that happening when regions are already losing money left and right on races.***

Jim, what single word would you use to explain this ^ attitude?

You missed the post where I complimented Jared on his capabilities.

[R2 Racing]

Shoot, take it to an event with a different tech inspector, perhaps one known to be friendly, and have him/her sign your current work as the "fix". Or at least soften it a bit by suggesting a permanent fix by next year.

Jared, as my Dad (apparently) told you at Road America, come out to Mid Ohio October 11th & 12th and I'll get it taken care of. At the very least, we could get it changed to "must be fixed by next season". I believe Jan Rief is finally bringing out his DA Integra too. Three DA's at Mid Ohio; that would be a record!

[lateapex911]

To be fair, Tech did suggest the bondo solution (I don't like bondo as a fix) as an alternative. The executive also was willing to waive the notation for the rest of the year if I wanted to race with SCCA before year's end.

I don't like doing bodywork, so I would take this to someone else to fix. Plus, even with the proper paint code, I have a lot of trouble matching my 18 year old faded metallic paint. I have the money to fix this, so its not even a question of if I can or not, but I would rather give the money to SCCA for entry than a body shop.

See, this is a bit different than your original post.

As for body work, I don't LIKE doing a lot of things to my car...rear bearings, trans work, etc, but you have to do those things to race..it's all part of the game.

Bondo? Hey, if you don't like it, oh well, your call. But matching paint??? Now you have me. On one hand you really don't care about the car being all wonky with rust coming through, but on the other you are saying it's too difficult to match the paint to your satisfaction?

Ummm....

Just take the option to fix it over the winter, and move on. Ask your local paint guy for some advise and take a bodywork plunge, and the pride in your work will show on the car and in your driving. Or have a local shop do it during slow times, perhaps for partial trade for on car advertisement.

Remember, you're the head mechanic, driver, accountant, tow rig operator, bodywork guy, chassis engineer and bottlewasher of your race "team". And sometimes cleaning bottles sucks. Oh well, it's part of the game.