Heater cores

[lateapex911]

Regarding weight.

Seriously??

A heater core weighs what, 2 lbs? and the lines, what, another 2? And there are complaints about 4 pounds, located in the MIDDLE of the car!?!?!?. Remember, if you are weight crazy, you can drain the lines and the core. Pulleeeeeze. Are you REALLY that good as a driver that 4 pounds spells disaster?

If so, then, I bet this, when we meet, I'll find more than 4 extra pounds on your body. (4 out of 5 times.... unless we're talking pros, who's job depends on their leanness and conditioning)

(I'm 6'3", weigh 198, and am about 5 pounds over. I do long distance swim competitions, as well as some running and biking, and I could be in a LOT better shape. I'll bet half the IT racers don't consider their body as part of the car....)

Sorry, but exercise benefits the car, and you, in many more ways than removing the easy to use, can't forget to apply it vision enhancing heater core. If youre in shape, you don't NEED a cool suit. I see guys with them for 20 minute races, and honestly, I laugh. Really! Yeah, it's nice on grid, but for 20 minutes?? (Shakes head). I've done a 3 hour enduro in 93 degree heat without one, it's not that hard.

(And why is it that MANY Pro teams can't seem to keep a windshield clear...I assume their staffing and budget have considered RainX etc.)

All cars come with heaters, many come with AC, but not all. Leave the Heater, it makes life better, doing nothing is easier and simpler.

[DavidM]

Somebody edumacate me. When you use the heater core for "defrost" are you just using the fan or actually heating the air via the core? Seems like blowing hot, moist air on the window wouldn't do a whole lot of good. Here in the south you gotta run the air through the dryer to dry out the air in order for the defrost to have any affect.

David

[lateapex911]

My use has been in heavy rain, and I circulate coolant thru the core, on full heat. A weather guy can explain the science, but my windshield was clear in the areas that the defroster blew, and foggy at the perimeters in this race:

[JeffYoung]

Holy cow. That would be wet. Is that the one you won? Nice job....

[77ITA]

yeah, I don't even like to go outside when it's raining that hard

[gran racing]

I certainly don't have anything to gain by removing a heater core (other than simplicity)

I really don't follow the simplicity argument. The simpliest thing is just to leave it stock.

For A/C, maybe part of the reasoning for allowing it to be removed is that some cars on the same spec line came with A/C just as an option. All came with heaters.

[77ITA]

I really don't follow the simplicity argument. The simpliest thing is just to leave it stock

When building a car from a bare chassis up, that doesn't really apply... but I digress; laziness is not what I am talking about here.

Some cars, are not as simple as two radiator hoses and two heater hoses. For example, here is a diagram of the coolant hose routing on the S2000. There is quite a bit of excess junk there that is associated directly with the heater core. It would obviously be more simple to not have that, but again.. my goal here isn't a rule change, rather to understand why the rule directs me that I need to keep all that junk.

[lateapex911]

Holy cow. That would be wet. Is that the one you won? Nice job....

That's the one...was gridded 8th of about 22. when the skys opened on grid, they said, "% minutes to get back here if you want to change tires". Acck. I git back in 4.5 minutes, thanks to the help of the entire Blethen crew, and A Shepard or two, I think.

The Integra and CRX boys either ran in their trailers wide eyed, or slipped off.
I was able to get around 4 guys in the banking (first turn) then made a pass for the lead on lap 2 or 3. Oddly, the lap chart shows that on some laps I was 8 seconds faster than the next fastest car. Not oddly, each lap had two "Oh s8it! I just threw this thing away, what an idiot!" moments, where the car was sliding with little helm, but each time I got it back. After a few, I learned to expect it, and adjusted my line to slide where I wanted to be on the other side. Of course, visibility to the rear was less than perfect, but by halfway I figured out that I had a pretty decent lead, and slowed down.

Of course, I am a swimmer, and dirt stockers rule! But I got lucky and managed to herd it the distance. Windshield was 80% clear, but there was 2" of water on the floor sloshing about. If there were any field mice hiding in the car, they could have broken out there little surfboards and hung 10. (or however many they have)

[JeffYoung]

Now that is racing in the rain. Good work Jake.

That's the one...was gridded 8th of about 22. when the skys opened on grid, they said, "% minutes to get back here if you want to change tires". Acck. I git back in 4.5 minutes, thanks to the help of the entire Blethen crew, and A Shepard or two, I think.

The Integra and CRX boys either ran in their trailers wide eyed, or slipped off.
I was able to get around 4 guys in the banking (first turn) then made a pass for the lead on lap 2 or 3. Oddly, the lap chart shows that on some laps I was 8 seconds faster than the next fastest car. Not oddly, each lap had two "Oh s8it! I just threw this thing away, what an idiot!" moments, where the car was sliding with little helm, but each time I got it back. After a few, I learned to expect it, and adjusted my line to slide where I wanted to be on the other side. Of course, visibility to the rear was less than perfect, but by halfway I figured out that I had a pretty decent lead, and slowed down.

Of course, I am a swimmer, and dirt stockers rule! But I got lucky and managed to herd it the distance. Windshield was 80% clear, but there was 2" of water on the floor sloshing about. If there were any field mice hiding in the car, they could have broken out there little surfboards and hung 10. (or however many they have)

[kthomas]

We learned to never race the Z in the rain. A) you get wet, B ) backmarkers hit you while you're lapping them, C) even with a working heater core the windshield fogs up, D) its hard to shift with one hand on the wheel and one hand holding the stick with the rag on the end of it to wipe the aforementioned fogged windshield, and most important: E) Z's don't need any more encouragement to rust.

Back in the day, when the rules were still very "regional", we tried the ole "the heater conditions the air, therefore the heater core is part of the air conditioning system" argument. The Z factory service manual even referred to the heater stuff as "conditioning the air". Won the race on the track, lost it in the tech shed. Oh well, wasn't the first time....

[shwah]

David - I use heated air. My car never had AC, and warm air has more capacity to absorb water than cool air. Of course drying the air by cooling it down and precipitating out the water first will work even better, but all else equal, warm air blowing on a foggy windshield is better than ambient or no air blowing on it.

To the topic in general - my impression of this thread is that some folks think that 'real race cars' just don't have heater cores. My counter argument - 'real IT cars have working heaters'

[lateapex911]

LOL, Chris, my counter is, "Why would you want to do something to add more work, and help you lose a winnable race? " I guess if you're winning all the time, who cares, don't race in the rain. But that's too NASCAR for me.

Oh, one other idea as to the reason, when IT was first conceived, it was a "dual purpose" class. Cars needed to maintain certain things, that made them street capable. My first car in the mid 90s got driven all over New England to races on race tires, and race springs and shocks, packed to the gills with a tent and tools and spares.

[JLawton]

For those that would like to remove the heater core, there's always something called........... Production!! Now those are real race cars!!

[wcmcarlos]

David,
I dont have the answer to that question, but at this year's double DS at RR, it was raining cats & toads for the first run session.
I turned on the defroster, put fan on high, and it worked.
Worked in paddock, grid, and warm up lap.
No A/C, no heater, windows wide open, blower cleared the windshield. and double

Carlos

[DavidM]

I think if you can get enough air movement then the windshield won't fog. I know several people that just have fans that blow across the windshield. I was wondering if actually using the heater core to heat up the air was any good. The A/C in my daily driver is out and it's pretty much useless to run the defrost fan without being able to kick-on the A/C to dry out the air so I was thinking using the heater core wouldn't help too much.

David

[GKR_17]

Warm air holds more water, so using the heater does help. Plus, if the windshield is warmer, less vapor will condense there in the first place. Cooling it before heating will pull some of the moisture out so it would work even better. As should be clear from this topic, cars had defrosters long before they had AC.

[nsuracer]

I have only been racing I.T. for 2 years but I ran circle track in Mini Stocks for about 15 years. Here is my take on all this. It really doesn't matter weather the heater is an asset or not. If you are racing a fairly new car that has everything in it, you are probably not faced with maintenance problems on the accessory items in the car. If however, you are racing a 25+ year old (fill in the blank), you are then forced to maintain nonessential systems that have absolutely nothing to do with performance. For example, Westmoreland Rabbits have plastic dashboards that break up, fuse boxes that go south, and wiring harnesses that are junk. I'd like to rip it all out and start over with only essential systems (including the heater).

For all those who say, go to production, I say that you are missing the point. Circle tracks run a class that is a whole lot stocker than I.T., it is called Hornets. The cars are dead stock, but they allow the entire interior to be gutted.

In my opinion, the modification rules have already gone to far. It is possible to spend a double butt load of money on legal suspension mods. Bottom line is, I would be against any rule change that would be performance inhancing but I sure would like to simplify the cars some.

[dickita15]

Well said.

[Knestis]

...Circle tracks run a class that is a whole lot stocker than I.T., it is called Hornets. The cars are dead stock, but they allow the entire interior to be gutted. ...

What's the claim rule like at your circle track? Here's what we've got at our local venue (for the similar UCAR class):

3. This is a claimer class. there will be a $900.00 claim on any car that finishes in the top three positions.

4. You must finish in the top six to place a claim. You must place your claim before the top three finishers are done with tech. Your claim must be placed with the pit Stewart in cash and in writing. The track will also reserve the right to claim any car or part anytime - racing seats and personal gear will not be part of any claim.

5. Refusing a claim will result in that car being banned from Ona Speedway and the driver being banned for the remainder of the season.

That pretty much defines the level of preparation at the front.

I'll keep asking the question as long as people keep making their cases based on their belief that THEIR favorite changed doesn't "enhance performance" - Would you be willing to accept as the new reality, the ITAC accepting every proposed rule change that applied that rationale? If not, what's your bright line for deciding what is and what isn't allowed?

K

[Tak]

If I recall correctly, a lot of cars that were eligible in the early days of IT had air conditioning as a dealer installed option. Makes sense to allow it's removal, since policing what is dealer vs factory installed would be, um, difficult. Remember that only factory installed items are technically legal. That's why dealer installed wings or bigger rims are not allowed.
As an avid motorcyclist who uses fog-x regularly in my helmet, I can testify that fog-x saturates and fogs up when it is really wet!
My 'defroster' (no ac...) with a plugged heater core clears my windshield just fine.
I would never run without a defrost fan. As for the heater core, I can go either way... Removing it is a lot of work for 2 lbs.

Tak
29 ITA SFR SCCA