New IT class revealed at National Convention

[Spinnetti]

This is going to be a VERY interesting place to watch the "cheap race cars" experiment in all of its glory.

** ITJ gives people with existing Lemons/Chump cars a place to race

** The "$500 rule" goes POOF without a tzar to enforce it at the races

** Time passes - about 18 months is my guess

** Someone looks at the ITJ rules and does a purpose-built car - without the cultural and enforcement constraints, it's going to be KILLER, DUDE...!

It's like someone did a ctrl+alt+del on IT.

K

Lemons has already done that, and Chump making it worse....
I've run IT/A since 1992, and have been running Lemons for years instead. I get to build what I want, how I want, so long as its within the cost. I'm running a Lexus LS400 without any "bolt on" decorations and its a blast! Meanwhile, my nearly perfectly prepared AE86 sits covered in the garage on new but aging hoosiers due to getting bumped to ITB where I don't want to bolt 220lb to it. Its how IT used to be - and in the good way.

[Spinnetti]

Fixed.

By the way, I have a Lemons MkII Jetta kit. It ran a couple of races then blew up the engine before I snagged it. I've got a complete MkIII 2.0 swap for it.

Problem is, I don't have the time to put it together and drag it to the track. I'd be willing to give it to someone in exchange for the opportunity to be one of those "many guys" for a couple of races.



K

I'd take you up on that... I've built several, and we are doing well in our lexus, but I want to do a veedub, ideally with a TDI as the next engineering challenge. You could drive the Lexus for that matter if you are reasonably fast... We should be in the hunt to win now, so I'm looking to take home the nickles hopefully before too long... email me if you still have it my username at gmail

[Spinnetti]

Some of you clearly don't get it. Think of it if you were a mythical sales guy tring to make the pitch to run SCCA vs. "Crap Can"

Org
SCCA - Permits, Licenses, 2 drivers schools, huge rule book
CC - Small rule book, licence by paying for it

Car
SCCA - Hugly restrictive, build how SCCA wants it, seems to be winning cars and everybody else
CC - Build what you want, how you want

Event
SCCA - mostly sprint races lots of downtime
CC - All enduros, very little downtime

Cost
SCCA - Expensive to run up front
CC - Less expensive to run up front

Quality
SCCA - Some great guys, lots of hyper aggressive dbags
- Plenty of on track contact
CC - Lots of great guys, a few hyper aggressive dbags
- Very little. Strongly disincentivized


Its funny to me that the whole club looks down on IT, and IT looks down on CC. As (for now) an ex-SCCA guy, you guys for the most part just don't get it. Lemons is more fun for less $. simple. I see it as exactly what IT was meant to serve. As for "rolling chicanes", "Dangerous cars" etc... all I can say is "whatever". When I ran ITA, there were plenty of those. In CC, you just know that its up to you to keep it clean. I don't worry about my line, I just make sure I get a clean run by regardless of what the others will do. I've had one contact (wheel mark) in 240hrs or racing. Certainly less than in SCCA where I lost a car and got hit good twice besides. I'm having a blast in Lemons, and will try Chump too. Besides, nowhere in the SCCA can I run what I felt like running - a nice Lexus LS400!

[Spinnetti]

we should be running in our first LeMons event in April.

i give the region credit for getting outside the box. if they can fill up their own race group, that would be great.

one headache will be the licensing. but if we had our LeMons event late in the summer, this would be one way to get some more seat time or shake-down time for your car.

So, how'd you like it Tom? I'm ready to win one of these things... just need better pit work and flag free drivers!

[wepsbee]

So I checked the rules:
1.4: Claiming Race: At the end of the competition, the Organizers--and nobody else, you lazy, better-car-wantin' bastids--may elect to purchase any vehicle from its owner(s) for $500. In other words, don't spend a lot on a cheater, cause if you do, you ain't gonna own it much longer.
1.6: Your Car May Be Destroyed at Any Time: In addition to accidents and other unfortunate boo-boos, one car may be selected by blind ballot of all teams for immediate removal and total destruction. It could be your car. It probably WILL BE your car. You'll have 30 minutes to yank out any safety items you want to rescue, and then it's toast. Them's the breaks. Don't bring it if you ain't OK with losing it.
So I spend $1500 or more putting in a roll cage and I could lose it all just for fun!!!!

[Knestis]

I'd take you up on that... I've built several, and we are doing well in our lexus, but I want to do a veedub, ideally with a TDI as the next engineering challenge. You could drive the Lexus for that matter if you are reasonably fast... We should be in the hunt to win now, so I'm looking to take home the nickles hopefully before too long... email me if you still have it my username at gmail

I've finally shifted it to some friends down in NJ who are going to help get it together. Given the realization about the lack of secondary insurance, I'm rethinking it a little but the car will at least get done at this point.

K

[JoshS]

They're out racing?? Not all regions have full fields. I don't know how busy NASA events are in the North West, but in California they easily have 2-3 times the cars in the paddock. Same with 24hrs of Lemons events. I've seen lots of 10 car and under fields, but never a one car field.

In San Francisco Region SCCA, things are very different and much much healthier than SoCal and the PNW, it would appear.

Our NASA and SCCA turnouts are about the same (very full). But the big difference is that SCCA has a paddock full of race cars, and NASA has 15% race cars and 85% HPDE cars (I don't know the actual number, it's something like that), and the few race cars that are there get all stuffed onto the track together for super-short sessions so the practice and qually sessions are basically useless.

[tom91ita]

So, how'd you like it Tom? I'm ready to win one of these things... just need better pit work and flag free drivers!

we had a ball!

for three guys, this was their first time W2W. i did not go at all last year and for $550 plus my fuel there, i got out this year.

and we are getting together probably the same group for Autobahn in June.

K, give up your car to folks to prep it. that was Lee's entry fee. he found that old ITC car for $500 and sold some parts off it and that is our car now. others put in some cash and others sweat equity to prep the car.

no cars were claimed or destroyed at Gingerman and from what i hear, that is there mostly as a "scare" factor to keep folks relatively honest.

oh, and 1 of the 3 newbs wants to build a sister 1st gen crx into an ITB car and go scca.

[Spinnetti]

I've finally shifted it to some friends down in NJ who are going to help get it together. Given the realization about the lack of secondary insurance, I'm rethinking it a little but the car will at least get done at this point.

K

K. Thanks for the info... I'm going to keep a lookout for a MKI Scirocco or GTI...


Tom:
Glad you enjoyed it! "Get with it" though and build something more interesting! - leave the CRX/Miata/E30 to the SCCA folks and build something nobody else would dare - that's 1/2 the fun
For me, I enjoy building the car and making it do things others didn't think was possible - and I ain't done yet

[Flyinglizard]

I am trying to advise Chumpcar with a rules set. The faster cars see no need for any parity. Big surprise. The new guys dont want to rock the boat. The 6cyl, rear drive cars are the class of the group as the Chumpcar rules allow any car without engine size distinctions.
Just using the 205 tire width, will keep the car fairly even. The big V 6 and V 8 cars cant put power down on a 205 tire. The small VW/honda/Miata, can be close at the end of a lap , if all the cars are on a 205 tire . (Based on my data and past experience.)
I would highly recommend that any region that tries this, should consider some tire width rule from the start . The wheels are already bought so some may have 7.5 or 8 in wide wheel s, but if the tires are all small car optimal , more parity will be the result.
The size # is easy to see and regulate.
Better racing will be the result. IMHO

[red986s]

By the way, I am told MidDiv had a lemons class at schools and regionals last year.

They did. A couple "ITC" level and a couple "AS" level cars. No shark fins or stuffed animal heads were seen. Though one of the "AS" level cars, a mustang, looked like it was straight out the movie "Mad Max". It wasn't a big deal and everyone had a great weekend.

I think as long as you keep it at a reasonable level we snobby drivers wouldn't even notice a "crap car" in the mix.

[jimbbski]

1.6: Your Car May Be Destroyed at Any Time: In addition to accidents and other unfortunate boo-boos, one car may be selected by blind ballot of all teams for immediate removal and total destruction. It could be your car. It probably WILL BE your car. You'll have 30 minutes to yank out any safety items you want to rescue, and then it's toast. Them's the breaks. Don't bring it if you ain't OK with losing it.
So I spend $1500 or more putting in a roll cage and I could lose it all just for fun!!!!

I think this rule is put there to keep racers from cheating, not that they would.

I ran my frist Lemons race on April 19 & 20 at Gingerman and even though our car had problems and I had problems with the car I had fun and plan on running another race in Oct. at Autobahn.

While a few cars have been crushedin the past, mostly in the first few years of Lemons, I haven't heard of any being crushed lately. The actions of those teams that caused their cars to be crushed were noted by the other teams and those actions were not repeated by other teams at future races.

You can read up on most of this by going to the Lemons website and reading past forum postings.

[GTIspirit]

So what happens when a guy with a $500 investment (little skin in the game) pulls a total bonehead move and takes out a 60K racecar? Oh well....that's racing???

I think it's a poor idea......sounds purely revenue-centric to me....

The good news is this will pave the way for figure-8 racing, school bus racing, demo derbies, monster trucks, corn dogs and funnel cakes......

R

I keep wanting to go watch the figure-8 school bus racing at the local oval dirt track. I'm sure I could get some corn dogs and funnel cakes there, mmmm.

[tom91ita]

I think this rule is put there to keep racers from cheating, not that they would.

I ran my frist Lemons race on April 19 & 20 at Gingerman and even though our car had problems and I had problems with the car I had fun and plan on running another race in Oct. at Autobahn.

While a few cars have been crushedin the past, mostly in the first few years of Lemons, I haven't heard of any being crushed lately. The actions of those teams that caused their cars to be crushed were noted by the other teams and those actions were not repeated by other teams at future races.

You can read up on most of this by going to the Lemons website and reading past forum postings.

what car were you in?

i was with the "Team Gutty" CRX Lee team. Jabaays had prepped the car.

EDIT: we are planning on the June event at AutoBahn/Joliet, IL

Originally Posted by Doc Bro
So what happens when a guy with a $500 investment (little skin in the game) pulls a total bonehead move and takes out a 60K racecar? Oh well....that's racing???

I think it's a poor idea......sounds purely revenue-centric to me....

The good news is this will pave the way for figure-8 racing, school bus racing, demo derbies, monster trucks, corn dogs and funnel cakes......

R

would the $60K driver feel better about being taken out by a $3500 car? bonehead moves are not limited to those that have an inexpensive car. i figured the most valuable part of the cars i have driven was the driver.

[Spinnetti]

So what happens when a guy with a $500 investment (little skin in the game) pulls a total bonehead move and takes out a 60K racecar? Oh well....that's racing???

I think it's a poor idea......sounds purely revenue-centric to me....

The good news is this will pave the way for figure-8 racing, school bus racing, demo derbies, monster trucks, corn dogs and funnel cakes......

R

Classic.. The "snob effect". Somehow "I'm important and a good driver because I spent a lot of money". I find the reverse to be sometimes true. The rich guys can afford it and bang into people or drive like they own the track. Us folks with more ordinary means want to keep our "junkers" as clean as possible (well, I do anyway).... It does seem to vary by region and doesn't seem to be correlated by income or car cost. I think your premise is is not support by any verifyable facts. Actually, Lemons/Chump cars cost about the same as a mid-pack IT car. Much is safety junk anyway. Yeah, there are some huge speed differentials in Lemons, and yes, some of those folks can't drive to save their lives, but so what? I've seen no data that SCCA is safer and lemons is more fun - All the more fun to pass them! 80 car fields beats the heck out of 3 car fields. I'm not sure if I'm ever coming back despite my fully developed car just sitting in the garage. My "Lemons" racing has been cleaner than a lot of SCCA racing, and I no more want my Lemon dinged than my pristine unscratched IT car that I've been racing since 1992. I think you just don't want your a$$ kicked by my "$500" Lemon (LS400 Lexus) thus invalidating your $=self-image Come play in the "junker" world and you might just get surprised by the level of competition at the pointy end of the field

[Robbie]

So I checked the rules:
1.4: Claiming Race: At the end of the competition, the Organizers--and nobody else, you lazy, better-car-wantin' bastids--may elect to purchase any vehicle from its owner(s) for $500. In other words, don't spend a lot on a cheater, cause if you do, you ain't gonna own it much longer.
1.6: Your Car May Be Destroyed at Any Time: In addition to accidents and other unfortunate boo-boos, one car may be selected by blind ballot of all teams for immediate removal and total destruction. It could be your car. It probably WILL BE your car. You'll have 30 minutes to yank out any safety items you want to rescue, and then it's toast. Them's the breaks. Don't bring it if you ain't OK with losing it.
So I spend $1500 or more putting in a roll cage and I could lose it all just for fun!!!!

This tells me you've never been to a Lemons race. There have only been two cars claimed....ever. One was a Mercedes S600 that was a car that can never be registered, but the claim was never taken up. The other was a Camaro from Pratt and Miller with a race motor in it.

Most super cheated cars just get an insane number of penalty laps added. There hasn't been a car destroyed by the People's Curse in years.

Don't drive like an asshole and your car will survive.

[TStiles]

I am trying to advise Chumpcar with a rules set.
Better racing will be the result. IMHO

I sure hope ChumpCar is open to development of some rules , I suggested to Joey a few years ago that they might want to take a look at NASA PT classing in an attempt to establish what cars can and can't compete and potential class distinctions.

I left the discussion with the impression that they really like the way the system was working ( who wouldn't with the number of entries ) and they were not open to classing or making the rules less ambiguous.

I concluded that without a clearer ruleset , I would park my plans to build a car and just run a few races with buddies ( in their cars ) until it all sorted out. We're doing the 24 @ TWS next month , but that will likely be my last race because the car we have just can't cut it anymore.

I would find the ChumpCar series very appealing with either PT or IT ruleset.

[jimbbski]

what car were you in?

i was with the "Team Gutty" CRX Lee team. Jabaays had prepped the car.

EDIT: we are planning on the June event at AutoBahn/Joliet, IL

http://www.murileemartin.com/UG/LMIS...LMIS12-UG.html

Our team and car. Looking for a driver for the June race at Autobahn.

[tom91ita]

http://www.murileemartin.com/UG/LMIS...LMIS12-UG.html

Our team and car. Looking for a driver for the June race at Autobahn.

i loved that car! your theme was great as well.

we'll have to look you guys up. or stop by the Team Gutty (orange CRX # 75) trailer.

and for those that think a $500 car means that is all you spend, if you take a $500 EF civic and put in a full cage with thicker tubing than SCCA and brakes are "free" and not part of the budget, tires are not part of the budget but cannot be R compounds, wheels are not part of the budget, fuel cell is "free" and not part of the budget.

you could easily spend the $3500 to buy/prep a car or buy a used civic ITC / ITB car.

the LeMons have something similar to PT in that if they think you are BSing the costs (i.e., added go fast goodies), they assess you BS Laps. so three cars can be in the same class but get different handicaps.

for me, this is about going to the county fair/carnival. i go to have a good time not because i have to win a prize. but then, we are already plotting adding a larger cell to allow for longer runs.....

[jimbbski]

I won't be at the June race, that's why the line about looking for drivers for that race. Another driver and I have other plans.

I do plan on racing at the Oct. Autobahn race. I don't think our team will enter any other Lemons races other then those two.