SCCA's answer to the HPDE participants

[downingracing]

This is all my personal opinion (my .02¢): I don’t think that HPDE/PDX generates a large number of racers. I think it is like Autocross – it is its own thing and not a great feeder for w2w. It generates racers – sure, but not in mass. If it did, That N club would have had to split into separate weekends for races and HPDE events due to the number of folks moving from HPDE to racing. I know quite a few folks who HPDE/PDX and most of them are very happy doing just that. They can have a nice street car with little to no modification and enjoy lapping days. No licensing, safety gear (cage/suit/H&N/fire system…), trailer or any of the other expenses that come with racing. Heck – They can even purchase cheap insurance for the PDX to cover their street car if anything happens to it! Now many of the track day folks do trailer their car to the track and have some or all of the safety items – some even use race prepped cars. But they seem happy with just doing the track day and have little to no interest in racing. (At least the ones I’ve talked to). Sure – I’ve seen guys do one PDX and purchase a race car the next week (Dan!). But that seems to be the exception… Some of the guys I’ve talked to said they PDX/HPDE because of the high cost of entry to club racing. These same folks are doing the track day in their $50k Porsche 911 or BMW or S2000 or Z06 Corvette. Wearing a race suit that cost thousands of dollars and running R compound tires, big brakes – upgrades galore to the car….. When I tell them they could have more fun w2w in a Civic – I get a funny look. When I try to explain the way in (i.e. selling the expensive street car and getting a DD beater to afford to go racing), I get the same funny look. If they really wanted to go w2w racing – they could make it happen.

I know around here (GLDiv), we have decent turnout for the PDX events at Mid-Ohio. Everyone I talk to has a good time and some express interest in racing. I also know that there is not time during the weekend for a PDX group. The race groups are still large enough to fill the weekend schedule.

[Knestis]

There are two different questions a play here:

1. How many NASA HPDE participants transition to W2W racing - a relatively small percentage

2. How many NASA racers started out in NASA HPDE - I'd venture that it's a huge majority

Focusing on the first question - which I think Matt is doing? - doesn't answer the question of where SCCA's new racers are going to come from.

Now, for my $.02... I don't think that the SCCA as an organization or a culture, is going to be tolerant of the relatively lower expectations re: safety that are at play in the NASA HPDE ladder.

K

[Marcus Miller]

As a related aside.... You are talking about SCCA PDX events twice or three times a year; At least for Norcal and Socal NASA regions, they have 10-12 events per year. Way more opportunity for track time in their HPDE sessions.
I'd also agree with Doc K; of NASA racers, high percentage wnet through HPDE as a way to get involved. Many HPDE folks have no interest in racing.

[seckerich]

Add to this that the TTAC (Time Trial Admin council) is currently thinking of allowing open passing in their level 3 events with cars that have no more than a roll bar. Idiotic that we are heading the NASA direction with our safety and turning this into a glorified race or test day. Drivers will get hurt and then we will force full road race gear on the group because of the stupidity of a few in power. Drivers are not wanting this, and my region damn sure does not want it. It will kill many of the good programs in place now.

[Matt93SE]

Never been to a NASA HPDE, but I know several friends that have, and are now racing with ST*, PT*, SM, etc etc etc within NASA. A few of them have also come over to SCCA.

I did HPDEs (just not in NASA) for about 8 years before I finally had the money to get into racing.

Almost all new racers stem from an HPDE type of environment, but as said, not all HPDE guys want to become racers. For those that do, the barriers to SCCA are seen to be high and wide.

honestly it wasn't that hard for me to get into SCCA- just expensive. I could have bought a legal, running IT car for less than the car I started racing with, but I wanted to build _MY_ car the way _I_ wanted.
That's one of the main differences I see in SCCA vs. NASA and the younger crowd. The younger guys look at SCCA and go "WTF? My daily driver is faster than an IT car and has more mods, and is cheaper to maintain. Then there's those Prod cars. Those things look stock on the outside with stock brakes, and have a $15,000 engine and $5000 in shocks? EFF DAT! I can go to NASA and build the car I want, then just add up the points and there's my class. easy!"


SCCA's classing structure is FAR from what the HPDE driver looks at when building their car. Unless you run in GT and some will fit in ST*, you're stuck with a crappy intake manifold, poor stock cams, brakes, whatever.. They can make their car faster for cheaper just staying in HPDEs and having fun.

[betamotorsports]

SCCA's classing structure is FAR from what the HPDE driver looks at when building their car.

Exactly. Its a different culture/mindset regarding car classing. SCCA will draw far fewer people from their HPDE program into Club Racing then NASA does (which is still a small percentage of HPDE participants.)

I have two customers now that are going with NASA TT/PT because their 150hp, 2,500lb. cars would have to run ITE. Both have run local SCCA PDXs and I tried to talk them into making a couple minor changes to get them into STU or ITA/ITB but they are not interested. Both asked, "Why go to the trouble when NASA will accept and class our cars as is?" I explained the classing philosophy to them but they don't care about the history of SCCA or IT. They just want to race and see SCCA class rules as a barrier to entry.

[downingracing]

..Almost all new racers stem from an HPDE type of environment, but as said, not all HPDE guys want to become racers. ...

Where did you get that stat from? I've searched in the past and can't find a 'real' source for actual data. I've known folks to come from PDX, Autocross, Drag Racing, friend of a friend... Tons of starting points. I know my sample is small (like 30-40 folks over the years) and would like to see some data on the road to w2w.

[ShelbyRacer]

As one of the people who helped this to happen, I think we must consider several things-

#1- In NASA (and some other clubs), if you want to RACE, you WILL participate in track-day events, since that is the core of their driver/racer education process. You work up through from track days to time trials to mock-racing scenarios, then you get to race. When you say that most of NASA's racers come from HPDE, realize that is by design, not by choice.

#2- We in SCCA still have the mindset that PDXs are best put on by racers. Coming from a region of hillclimbers that did autocrosses to help pay the bills, I can tell you that if people are putting on the events because of real or perceived obligation, the event will stop as soon as the people can find a way to get out of it. DC Region, and a few others, have built a program based on PDX participants (grown out of a few racers, many others, and some people from- GASP- other organizations) and it is relatively successful. It has taken them a few years to get to this point, but their efforts are getting results.

#3- Most racers are people who wanted to, um, race. Some autocross, or do HPDE events, or do other Time Trials, until either (a) they can afford to race, or (b) they can find a way to get into racing. The chances of converting a "true autocrosser" to racing are slim to none, since they really want to autocross. However, providing a means from someone who *wants* to transition from autocross to racing was something that SCCA lacked for a long time. PDX was meant to give people options, not only in finding a path to racing, but also to have another type of track event in which to participate.

A few notes though-
Steve- I am monitoring the discussion of alteration to the passing rules, and I will do everything I can to maintain rules that help keep our participants safe. While I am no longer head of the Safety Council, I still to have the ability (I believe) to weigh in if needed.

As mentioned by others- I believe our biggest barrier to entry for racers is our class structure, AND the perception of an archaic ruleset and leadership mindset. While PDX has the ability to attract participants and expose them to the true nature of our club, I'm not sure that doing so will do any more than to reinforce those views at this point.

I think Matt's original point was that if you honestly feel, given the situation in your particular area, that we are losing people by not having a way to bring them in without thrusting them neck-deep into Driver's School, then SCCA has a way to address that. It doesn't solve the problem, but it gives you one way to treat a major symptom...

[lateapex911]

I tell you, you Matts are VERY hard to keep track of! BOTH involved in HPDEs, BOTH Dodge guys, BOTH of you have two cars in your sig, and they are the SAME car!

[Matt93SE]

Where did you get that stat from? I've searched in the past and can't find a 'real' source for actual data. I've known folks to come from PDX, Autocross, Drag Racing, friend of a friend... Tons of starting points. I know my sample is small (like 30-40 folks over the years) and would like to see some data on the road to w2w.

Personal observation, obviously a small and fairly biased field, but it's what I've seen locally.

I started Autocrossing myself in about 2000 or 2001, then got into DEs because I wanted more speed. I did DEs and autoX for a few years, then decided to concentrate my money on DEs.
During that time, I watched many of my friends go through the same path and 'graduate' to w2w racing.

I finally went through the driver's school myself last summer, and most of the people there I knew from running DEs in the past, with the exception of a few "kids" that went directly from karts to racing. Just about everyone else there had done DEs for at least a couple years before they went racing.

Many of the people I race with, I also see participating and instructing at HPDEs for various local clubs like Driver's Edge, NASA, PCA/BMWCCA (they play together locally..), Viper and Corvette guys, etc.

So that's obviously hard, official data... But that's what I've seen. YMMV.

I tell you, you Matts are VERY hard to keep track of! BOTH involved in HPDEs, BOTH Dodge guys, BOTH of you have two cars in your sig, and they are the SAME car!

And then there's that blabbermouth in his Nissan that just won't take a hint he's not wanted.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Personal observation, obviously a small and fairly biased field, but it's what I've seen locally.

I started Autocrossing myself in about 2000 or 2001, then got into DEs because I wanted more speed. I did DEs and autoX for a few years, then decided to concentrate my money on DEs.
During that time, I watched many of my friends go through the same path and 'graduate' to w2w racing.

I finally went through the driver's school myself last summer, and most of the people there I knew from running DEs in the past, with the exception of a few "kids" that went directly from karts to racing. Just about everyone else there had done DEs for at least a couple years before they went racing.

Many of the people I race with, I also see participating and instructing at HPDEs for various local clubs like Driver's Edge, NASA, PCA/BMWCCA (they play together locally..), Viper and Corvette guys, etc.

So that's obviously hard, official data... But that's what I've seen. YMMV.


And then there's that blabbermouth in his Nissan that just won't take a hint he's not wanted.

I did the same, but in hindsight I also thought I knew it all and didn't ahng out with the "real" racers. If I did I would have done the whole racing thing TOTALLY different. I think you guys are on to something...

[red986s]

Some of the guys I’ve talked to said they PDX/HPDE because of the high cost of entry to club racing. These same folks are doing the track day in their $50k Porsche 911 or BMW or S2000 or Z06 Corvette. Wearing a race suit that cost thousands of dollars and running R compound tires, big brakes – upgrades galore to the car….. When I tell them they could have more fun w2w in a Civic – I get a funny look. When I try to explain the way in (i.e. selling the expensive street car and getting a DD beater to afford to go racing), I get the same funny look. If they really wanted to go w2w racing – they could make it happen

I'm an example of that. It was easy for me, I WANTED to race and knew what I had to do. It was tough sell my toys I had really worked hard for and wanted since I was a kid. Once folks realize they can't afford to convert their high end sports car to a racer we loose them. How do we change their minds?

[Knestis]

... Once folks realize they can't afford to convert their high end sports car to a racer we loose them. How do we change their minds?

In a lot of cases - probably most - we can't. And if we position the club strategically assuming we HAVE to accomplish that, we compromise what positive core competencies we do have.

K

[Jeremy Billiel]

Our problem in New England was the lack of volunteers to staff such and event. Given that our racing weekends are typically full, we experemented with running the PDX on a Monday (say memorial day), but it was very difficult to staff with the volunteers wanting to go home and already being at the track for 2+ days.

So the region decided the PDX was not worth the effort and not worth the burnout of our critical volunteers to make the bread-winner (RR) work.

[Chip42]

mixing a restricted regional of IT/ST/SM and maybe Touring/SS/B-Spec and a PDX in rotation like a regular race weekend would be a good way to really expose them to track time and racing and the competitors and cars up close and in person in a way that highlights the "ladder" for their cars.

Partnering with a successful local track day club would be a good way to start with a base pool of entrants, too.

obviously doesn't work for higher end sports cars and big buck super cars but hopefully they will see the "rental cars" running wheel to wheel at better lap times then they are getting and decide that racing can be for them. and meybe the PDX guys will see the light about moving their car up vs. picking up a racecar. sometimes it makes more sense that way.

[Lauren]

Our problem in New England was the lack of volunteers to staff such and event. Given that our racing weekends are typically full, we experemented with running the PDX on a Monday (say memorial day), but it was very difficult to staff with the volunteers wanting to go home and already being at the track for 2+ days.

So the region decided the PDX was not worth the effort and not worth the burnout of our critical volunteers to make the bread-winner (RR) work.

Jeremy,

We do pretty good with volunteers down here in th DC region. We figured at the beginning that it was going to be a challenge to attract our regular MARRS Flaggers (let's face it, flagging a PDX can be like watching the grass grow) so we added a little incentive to the picture. What we offered was what we call W3G1F which stands for "work 3 get 1 free".
All volunteers get a free PDX day if they work any 3 days in an 18 month period. Our first year we had a few MARRS Flaggers show up because working a PDX does count as a day towards your license. What it also brought in were some rank beginners as Flaggers who were interested in getting the free track day. We trained them to be Flaggers and paired them with the regular Flaggers as often as we could. That has resulted in PDX/TT becoming one of the prime avenues for new MARRS Flaggers including several ROY Flaggers. We now have a volunteer core made up of approximately 25% regular Flaggers and 75% PDX/TT participants and we never really hurt for volunteers although I still sweat staffing because I'm neurotic. LOL! Our Chief Stewards who act as Control also keep it very light on the radios making it fun to watch the "grass grow"! It's worked for us so maybe the same setup would work for you?

Lauren Robison
Crappy ITA Driver
Worker Chief PDX/TT

[mgyip]

The biggest barrier to attracting a younger crowd (or any crowd for that matter) is the clique-ish attitude of the regulars. All too often, I see newbies getting shuffled to the side or treated like an interloper b/c they aren't one of the regulars. This is especially troubling since it seems many Regions are combining PDX with Club Racing.

We've toyed with the idea of a mentoring program in the DC Region although it's never taken off in a formal sense. That doesn't mean that we don't try to look after folks, it's just not at the Region level which is probably for the better. In my case, we "took in" our current RE at a Club Race b/c he was looking for paddock space - in retrospect, we probably should have treated him better had we known that he'd become the Grand Poo-bah

As for PDX events - SCCA is 10 years late to the Track Event game. That isn't necessarily bad but the biggest challenge is that PDX is the ONLY non-competition program that SCCA offers. With that comes the challenge that participants aren't competitors and can't be treated as such. The vast majority of PDX participants are the starry-eyed dreamers that we were when we started into motorsports - remember that time? It was when "racecar" meant a fun and exotic mistress instead of the money-grubbing old hag that now resides in the garage.

IMHO, the trick to PDX is promotion - the events are virtually identical to the events that NASA, BMW, Audi and a host of others hold during the calendar year. What makes SCCA's events different? Not much - better organization and hopefully more advantageous scheduling. The harsh reality is that Track Events are luck-of-the-draw. John Q Customer looks at his schedule and decides "I want to goto the track on the 3rd week in July". He looks at his schedule and SCCA has an event that weekend so they're the winner. If NASA had an event on the 3rd week of July, they'd be the winner.

For Regions where track rental is expensive, start talking to the small local clubs who would like to have their own track event on a weekend. Get 3-4 small clubs together under the PDX brand and you'll have yourself an event. Do this a few times/year and you'll be surprised how the word spreads. The trick is to do all your homework in advance so that the participants "never see you sweat". Club Racing has been doing this for years and I can count the number of times that things were "confused" on one hand - these were usually surrounded by an extraordinary emergency that was well outside the real of normalcy.

PDX and Time Trials workers really don't need to be Race Flaggers - in fact our experience is that they shouldn't be Race Flaggers. They'll be bored stiff watching cars "circulate" - instead, tap friends of participants and folks who aren't quite sure that a Track Event is in their future. You'd be amazed how excited a first-timer can get when they get to hear tire squeal from their favorite sports car whilst standing in a tub.

[pballance]

For what it is worth, from a race chair perspective. We have added a PDX during quiet time or as an additional group during a race weekend. We had minimal success even though we heavily promoted it within our region. Could we have done better, yes! Did we learn from it, yes. Will we try it again, more than likely.

From a TT perspective as a member of the hosting region, We have added a PDX group within the normal "rotation" of run groups and it has worked pretty well. We are planning on doing it again.

I was a driver when TT's were run as a pod with only 3 cars on track at a time, 3 laps and then in to the paddock and wait for 2 hours to run 3 more laps. It sucked, I hated it and started looking at other bodies to provide me with track time. Thankfully The Regions stepped up and worked to make needed changes with the division.

The current TT format, which I fully support and worked to get approved as an alternative way to run a TT event is GREAT. I openly supported the change to similar lap time run groups with limited passing; but I will do everything I can to prevent a change to OPEN passing as some members have proposed to the TTAC.
IMHO, a change to unrestricted passing is a foolhardy move and subjects the club, and me as a host region member, to unnecessary risk that we are unprepared to respond to. Just a couple of questions to think about: Do we have enough "trained" workers to handle unrestricted passing? Do we have the necessary EMS/FIRE?rescue tools to handle car to car contact that results in a serious crash? Just some things to think about.

I provided the above to clarify my thoughts on the PDX program of SCCA. First off, PDX is an SCCA term and HPDE is a term used by NASA and other organizations. If we are going to discuss things we need to discuss the same things, not try to talk about HPDE, Track days, Test days and Level 1 TT, or solo trials under a single term. They are each slightly different.

We are competing with any number of track time "businesses" that offer lots of track time at a lower cost than NASA or SCCA. Porsche, BMW, Chin, and many others are all in the business of providing driver training and non competitive track days and they also "compete" with SCCA and NASA for the available $$$ of those seeking an on track experience. Do we need to improve our marketing to potential PDX/TT drivers absolutely. Is it the responsibility of the National office to promote TT/PDX events in your region? No, but helping promote our event is certainly proper. Has anyone asked for that help? I don't know, I know we have not asked for direct assistance in promoting our events.

Recently we had more than 40 drivers in TT and we also had a single day PDX(during the TT weekend) that I think had 10 drivers. I wasn't there I was at the ARRC. So in our area, in spite of competing track time groups, we seem to be holding our own.

In my opinion, it is wrong assumption that TT is a stepping stone to racing. Many of the TT drivers I know have expressed their desire to continue TT but do not wish to jump to road racing. Many road racers are now realizing how much track time/test time that a TT event provides and are starting to use it to tweek their skills and cars for road racing. In the above mentioned, hastily thrown together, TT event, each driver had over 2 hours of track time available for them.

Do we need to do a better job of marketing what we(SCCA) offer YES. Do we sacrifice safety for the sake of getting more entries? Hell no! Do we need to go head to head with other bodies that offer track time, I don't think so. We offer much more than a low cost track experience, but we do it a reasonable cost, not a bare bones costs. Most young people only look at the bottom line...How much to get MY car on track? They don't look at the value until after they have to shell out big bucks to dig themselves out from a low cost track learning experience.

Paul

[Kahl23]

This is a very interesting thread.

Being a 26 year old currently building a car for ITR, I figure it might be worthwhile to give my perspective, along with what I have heard from other youngsters. My background is I started out drag racing back in high school, got bored going in a straight line, started karting, did some autocross events, saved up my money to do a Skip Barber three day and now here I am with a BMW in the garage with a half-painted rollcage.

I think everyone is right that the SCCA is facing an uphill battle with the younger racers. However, I think the issue is broader than just a discussion about whether new racers come from the HPDE ranks. Every racer starts off with the idea "I think I want to race." That thought leads to "How do I start racing?" While the SCCA does a decent job answering the second thought (thanks in no small part to Dave Gran), it doesn't do a good job nurturing the first thought. If I'm expected to learn a rule book, take driver's courses and spend thousands and thousands of dollars on a race car before I even hit the track w2w, I better be damn sure that this is what I want to do with my time and money. I think the appeal of HPDEs is that they allow drivers to feel out racing at their own pace, without having to dive in. They can see if they truly love the sport, have enough talent to make it worthwhile, etc. before they are committed. Whether the SCCA decides to embrace HPDEs or not, they definitely need to figure out better solutions to help potential drivers confirm that thought of "I think I want to race."

Beyond the HPDE discussion (and this might deserve it's own thread) the biggest complaint I hear from young racers about the SCCA, especially in IT, is the rules. Jeff Young has said this several times in various threads and is correct in his assumption that the rules are a deal breaker for many of the younger racers. When you come to a place like improvedtouring.com and see arguments over things like washer bottles and wiring, it's an immediate turnoff. Why should I be forbidden from pulling out unnecessary wiring or the washer bottle when all it costs the racer is time and effort and doesn't give them an unfair advantage? From my perspective, while keeping the cars as close to factory as possible is admirable and was the original mandate of this class, that ideal of a street car for the track really went out the window with the current safety rules. Instead, I perceive IT as a (relatively) low cost class of racing, with enough mods to keep the mechanic in me happily tinkering away. These are race cars and I don't care if they have washer bottles, toggle switches, etc. as long as having such things doesn't give one racer a competitive advantage over another. The amount of arguing that goes into items that other clubs toss without a second thought reflects poorly on the SCCA and IT.

I decided to do IT because I was told by many people that some of the best racers in the Northeast are in IT. If this wasn't the case and I felt comfortable that similar depth of talent could be found in NASA or BMWCCA, I would be building a car for one of those clubs. Over the past year, reading the forums, SportsCar, etc. I've developed a real passion for the SCCA, but if at the start of my decision making process the depth of talent wasn't there to keep me around, I would have gone elsewhere.

There you have it. Obviously these are my own opinions (though I have heard them echoed by other young racers) and I'm sure some of the things I've said (especially about the purpose of IT) will be met with understandable hostility from the old guard, but I hope you see that it comes from a desire to see the SCCA grow and stay relevant over time. If you decide that bringing a new generation of drivers to IT is a worthwhile goal, then that will require some serious discussions that delve at the heart of IT as a class.

[lateapex911]

A most reasonable and insightful post, Kahl, thanks.

I'd like to hear you expound on your last point.
If YOU were on the ITAC, what would you do with the ruleset to make it more, shall we say, 'user friendly".
I might be the 'old guard' in some people eyes, but when I was on the ITAC, some (on the ITAC) thought I was trouble, LOL. I guess I'm trying to say that i try to see both sides of issues? So feel free to say what you think!