Alternate 240Z rear brakes...?

[Eagle7]

They were all finned Ron. Aluminum drum with steel insert.

If that's the case, then how can a steel aftermarket drum be considered a legal equivalent?

[JeffYoung]

It's unclear if the cars ever came with steel drums. If not, I agree, it's technically illegal.

But, I sure wouldn't want to be the guy who protested that.....

If that's the case, then how can a steel aftermarket drum be considered a legal equivalent?

[Ron Earp]

If that's the case, then how can a steel aftermarket drum be considered a legal equivalent?

It wouldn't be.

I just spoke with Riley at Lynchburg Nissan, probably the best Z parts man in the country. He says that Z cars came ONLY with finned aluminum drums. The 510s used steel drums, and of course those guys switched to Z drums for the competition setup.

So, steel aftermarket drums are technically illegal as no Z car was ever equipped with them. Since the aluminum drums are NLA (even Ebay only pulls up one drum right now) we are in sort of a pickle.

Riley also passed on other information about the drums. They were produced for Brembo/Nissan from a company in Italy. Brembo owns molds, but the other company does the production and they pulled the plug on production with only a few 100 orders for year. The molds are tied up at the company and it'll take a 1000+ unit order for them to do another run of them, which isn't going to happen.

Now, switching a 240/260/280 to disc rears isn't as easy at it sounds. According to Riley the 280ZX stuff does not bolt up, but, other OEM parts do. One is supposed to use a Maxima caliper bracket from 83/84 and 200sx calipers/rotors, from 82/83, mounted upside down to pull it off.

So, 240/260/280 drum brake racers might need to consider lobbying for some sort of rule change because racing with steel drums is technically illegal.

[lateapex911]

Regarding the GM issue, if the ITAC were to get a letter asking for the removal of the exception, I think it would be seen as a reasonable request, and we'd discuss the merits. IF we supported the removal, we'd add a "sunset clause" of a year or two for the Calais nation to source the parts.

FWIW, 1st gen RX-7s face a similar issue. Engine parts are NLA. There is a plating system available aftermarket, but the finished plating differs from stock in material, but not performance, and is therefor illegal.

[Greg Amy]

So, 240/260/280 drum brake racers might need to consider lobbying for some sort of rule change because racing with steel drums is technically illegal.

GCR/ITCS 9.1.3.C says, in part:

"Documentation of the superseding parts or assemblies must be supplied to the Club Racing Department and the appropriate part numbers listed on that particular model’s specification line."

If you saunter down to your local Nissan dealership and order a pair of rear drums for a Z-car, what will you get? I'll wager a dollar you'll get a pair of steel drums. As such, the steel ones are not only legal, they're the only legal new part for the car. So, no lobbying needed, all one needs to do is provide the Club Racing Department with valid documentation that the aluminum parts are no longer available, and ask them to spec on the line that steel equivalents are expressly legal (although I can't imagine anyone dropping the money and effort to protest you for that). Contact Paul St. Clair at NisMo; I bet he can provide that to you same-day via FAX or email.

On the other hand, if you guys really think you'll get rear discs approved for the car simply because the aluminum drums are no longer available, well you're smokin' the funny stuff -- and this month's Fastrack should have put that idea to bed pretty quickly... - GA

[spawpoet]

Anyone have a clue how much it would cost to have warn out drums re-lined?

[Ron Earp]

On the other hand, if you guys really think you'll get rear discs approved for the car simply because the aluminum drums are no longer available, well you're smokin' the funny stuff -- and this month's Fastrack should have put that idea to bed pretty quickly... - GA

No Greg, I think if you read what I and others have written nobody here (except for the thread starter) is going to ask for disc rear allowance. I simply wrote what Riley passed on to me so that folks could see what was involved with putting drums on the rear of a Z car. It isn't a simple swap over from a 280zx.

My mistake in my post was writing "lobbying for a rule change" when I meant lobbying to have steel drums approved. I had forgotten about the part supercede pathway and I'm sure that Lynchburg Nissan/Riley will provide this documentation.

[betamotorsports]

Anyone have a clue how much it would cost to have warn out drums re-lined?

I talked with a couple plasma spray companies and it can be done for about $175 per drum (shipping, core charges, etc. would be extra) in a quantity of 50. The existing steel surface needs to be machined flat, the surface prepped and then sprayed, and then the surface needs to be machined to the correct dimension. There is some concern about an out-of-round condition due to the different materials so I was planning on a test run.

But... a couple west coast Z racers told me they are working with Brembo to do a new production run of some kind for the drums. I put my efforts on hold until i see the results of their efforts.

[acotyk]

Thanks to everyone that has responded, there’s a lot to digest here on the subject.

First-off, I want to make a plea to everyone, not to mount a campaign to rescind the rear bearings (and brakes) from the Olds and Pontiac guys. In my opinion this would be a terrible thing to do to them, essentially legislating dangerous parts back onto their cars, inviting much anger among their ranks, and possibly losing some great competitors within a club that desperately needs them. It’s an unwarranted vengeance. This was not my intention with the request.

I do though find myself questioning this particular premise of the class. I question that it is outdated to reject some wider updating of parts for limited reasons, in the same manner that the original IT premise of a “dual purpose” vehicle became outdated. (the concept of a class where its competitors desired to drive to the track, put numbers on the car and race, then drive home and use their cars as a family vehicle, has surely passed, and that verbiage and concept are therefore no longer cited in the rules). So too may the strict concept of updating and backdating of parts only within a single specification line, be outdated, and that no allowances for NLA parts be a premise of the class.

I have built and raced Datsun 240Z’s for 20+ years now. The true situation with the cars as they sit, is that because of improvements in tires and brake pad materials through the years, the cars when driven hard surely have some brake limitations. I no longer for instance, race at Blackhawk farms, Road America, or Summit Point because of this. This is primarily as Lance Loughman outlined, because the front solid rotor no matter how well ducted or what brake fluid or pads you are using, cannot reject the heat under some conditions. This is of course a limitation on a lot of racecars, but it’s pretty severe on the 240’s.

In this particular Comp board request case we are hitting another kind of limitation that is pretty real. If I cannot get a rear brake drum, then I cannot race the car. My opinion is that the cast iron drums would be less able (than a finned aluminum drum with steel insert), to dissipate the heat from the latest brake pad friction coefficient capability. And there seemed to be a reasonably simple configuration available from the same type car, that would alleviate the problem.

I fight the concept in this class, that I need to simply move over, build another car, go vintage, quit racing, or move to another class , when a key consumable becomes NLA, without questioning the current IT class philosophy.

Before I get flamed here, I’ll submit that I hadn’t planned on becoming an old racing fart, but that seems to have occurred, and I want to keep racing the old car that I have. It’s just something I want, a desire. If I request for my club to do something that makes this possible for me and those like me, and it is rejected by the persons who represent the collective will of the club in making the rules, then so be it I’ll move on. I want as much possibility as I can have, to continue to race this ITS classified vehicle. That’s my club member input/request.

Maybe an answer to the problem here, with respect to the situation we have with the one rogue alternate drum-to-disc rule that exists, and with the situation with older cars with drums, would be to permit any drum brake to be replaced with a disc brake. Possibly the Committee could draft a rule that globally permitted this within some guidelines that would suit the concept.

I think that I request from the Committee, that wider considerations be given to updating of parts where NLA situations can be reasonably demonstrated, and/or where safety can be improved, without significant alteration of a car’s competitive capability (as was surely the case with the Olds/Pontiac SS ruling). To not simply invoke the “beyond class philosophy” verbiage, for all such requested changes.

[lateapex911]

You mention "modern brake pad materials", inferring that they create more heat than the parts are capable of accepting. But, there are many brake pad materials, some equvilent, or the same as, the old compounds. So, that's a solvable issue.

The issue with exceptions becomes, where to draw the line.

Witness this by the ONE exception, left over from who knows when (there were others, but we've stricken them) is being used as justification for this. We get letters regularly like "My car can't make the weight you set with me in it, I need an alternate body part allowance for the Humpback GT", Or, "the hubs fail on the car if we race them too often, please allow upgraded hubs"..and on and on.

I'm in the same boat, my car can not get engine parts. But, I've raced it for 10 years, it's set a lot of records and won some races. It's a tool, and tools wear out. Time to move on. keeps you young!

[pballance]

Thanks to everyone that has responded, there’s a lot to digest here on the subject.
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Acotyk, Your well reasoned, respectful manner in which you have responded is to be commended . I may be taking your comments the wrong way but I feel like you are attempting to make the "club" work for its members which has not always been the case. Even though I may disagree with you , I applaud your efforts and it has made me reconsider some of my opinions about racing an older car. I look forward to racing alongside of you in a Z and sharing a beverage in the paddock after the race.

I also ask the entire group, how do we age out a car in IT? Seriously, I don't want to stop racing my Z and I am sure there are some 510, RX7, Borgward, etc. drivers that want to continue, but how do we limit when a car must stop racing? Do we simply make concessions, such as discussed here when parts are NLA, to keep them racing? Can we create a "process" by which a car should be aged out? Is it even in the best interest of the club to consider aging out cars? Just thinking out loud, Can you tell it is the silly season??

BTW, I don't like the idea that "we should just go find something else to race" mentatlity but that certainly is one solution.

Paul