2014 Improved Touring Participation

[gran racing]

The ITB Hondas , the Mk 3 Vws have driven the old guard to other classes.

As someone experienced this first hand, many of the old guard were complacent running on an old engine that was built many years ago, had crappy suspensions from the 80s, ran old tires, and so on. Several of these cars got the attention of people who wanted to really develop them, were willing to invest in the pretty good bits, had pro motors built, and used fresh tires. It became laughable when the old guard would approach me, complain about my car, look over and see just heat cycled tires on it, I'd ask how many cycles were on theirs and the response was either I don't know or maybe around 20?

To prove that point home, an old guard car was brought to Lime Rock several years ago where it was not a front runner. Of course because the car was aged, and didn't have the performance as others. A talented driver who hadn't driven that car in many years jumped in, and within a few laps was well under the lap record and not on fresh tires (if I recall correctly).

Is it conceivable that a guy with a top Regional effort would want to continuously up his game and have goals and targets to shoot for? The flip side to this is that guy gets bored with smacking his locals around and stops racing. Now there is lost revenue.

Yes, I'll agree that guy wants to continuously up his game, BUT not be required to significantly up the build cost. I want to race against people who have similar budgets and make it about how we spend our limited budgets, and the driver. Do I want to be racing against a bunch of guys who have $50k builds? Nope. And the same guys who have the money to constantly be getting top coaching around the U.S. and all of the other advantages money brings? Between the two, I don't see that it would be that much fun to be to a AAA ball club constantly playing against the Yankees.

Andy, there numerous times I thought that you built your car too well and as a result, it took the fun away.

[StephenB]

I love chasing the best. ITR in the northeast has the money, driver coaching, and top builds that would and could compete at a national level. I am trying to catch them... I may never do it but it's fun to try!



Stephen

[gran racing]

By all means I am not knocking the drivers in ITR or any other IT class, but sorry, it's not on the overall level that SM has. Just the way it is. I KNOW that I'd need to really, REALLY need to up my game to be towards the pointy end of the SM pack even with the right car.

[StephenB]

Oh for sure, I was just sayin I don't mind being the guy chasing those fast guys :-) kinda fun to get within a few tenths of them or keep them in my sites during the race!

I have always thought over the years that ITA has had that same level prep cars as well.

[Tom Blaney]

Dave

Part of the real enjoyment of amateur racing is that everyone who follows the rules when it comes to preparing a car has the same chance to win as the "rich guy". This does not matter if it is a GT/Prod/IT car, the rules will state that you can do only so much to the car. There is not a whole lot of performance difference between my motors and the guys down south, we all know the technical details. So a 5k difference is a motor build will not get you anything that an effective driver can't overcome. You proved that with the "old timers car" and the talented driver resetting track record.

Also part of the enjoyment of these kinds of classes is that the owner/driver/builder can sit in his garage with a can of beer and think how he can improve the car's performance with his own skills and effort. I know for a fact that when you beat a "race shop prepped" with your "home built" it is a much better victory lap then most.

So my contention (and I agree with some of the comments) that the club dispose of the national/regional would allow more people to compete in bigger fields (and against some really good "national drivers") and enjoy one of the reasons this is amateur racing.

[StephenB]

Nice post Tom! I agree!

I think we should do away with the national/regional thing and just race. I could care less if they said no IT at the runoffs, that doesn't matter to me. I just think the club is to confusing with the different "levels" if you want to call it that. To be honest I don't think IT should go to the runoffs as trying to enforce the rules on 40year old cars would be difficult and probably more of a mess than SM was. SCCA needs to be simpler so everyone gets it from the outside looking in. Consolidate classes and make them make sense so if you decide to modify your car more you can and just move up in cost and allowable modifications.

Stephen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yes, I'll agree that guy wants to continuously up his game, BUT not be required to significantly up the build cost. I want to race against people who have similar budgets and make it about how we spend our limited budgets, and the driver. Do I want to be racing against a bunch of guys who have $50k builds? Nope. And the same guys who have the money to constantly be getting top coaching around the U.S. and all of the other advantages money brings? Between the two, I don't see that it would be that much fun to be to a AAA ball club constantly playing against the Yankees.

Andy, there numerous times I thought that you built your car too well and as a result, it took the fun away.

As a Red Sox fan, I never blamed the Yankees. I blame MLB. You can't have a system in place where one guy has an unlimted budget and one guy can spend 1/10th of that. There is no ceiling.

Having said that, there is no form or racing where budget doesn't matter. Fresh tires every session, highest end data to learn more, private driving coaches, fresh motors way more often... All it takes is one guy to up his game and that becomes the new standard. In NER, it was Blaney and Serra that kicked off the onslaught. I can say this with fact because those were the cars I looked at when I asked myself if I wanted to jump in.

I had plenty of fun doing what I was doing...but it was time for me to go. I loved the class rules and there was no National Championship to shoot for so I was done with any 'goal's' I had. Couple that with an intense love of coaching youth sports, it all fizzled.

Track records will fall with new tires and more HP development. It's all good.

The IT rules are good and the management of said rules is good. It's when there are lots of entries. Find a car you love and build it and have fun.

[Dano77]

find a car you love and build it and have fun.

This...... And if you can convince 13 of your buddies to spend a little money and race together, more better.....


OK 14, one more may be heading this way to run in the NERRC IT7 Dinosaur Super Series.

[JeffYoung]

It's a bit sad to see the fracturing of IT. The ruleset has some sort of "magic" in it. It's stable, and it produces great racing across many marques and years of production. You would think the SCCA would see more value in that, and by that I don't mean trying to duplicate it in new classes with similar prep.

Five years ago I was happy with IT being an "outlaw" regional class and wanted nothing to do with national racing. I was wrong. Kirk and Andy were, at the time, right. Without "Full" status within the SCCA, IT is destined to die off I think. Which is a shame.

And it needn't happen, and it needn't happen at the cost of entries to ST or Prod. The answer is, I strongly believe, to take the best of three classes that are very close in prep -- LP Prod, ST and IT -- and combine them into a super production car series.

folks are nibbling at the edges of this idea, but we need to get down to it to see if it works.

If not, then I ride the IT wave until it dies and move somewhere else. Which is really not what I want to do.

[Greg Amy]

Without "Full" status within the SCCA, IT is destined to die off I think.

I simply cannot disagree with you more, my friend. It is because IT does not have "full" status that it has survived as long as it has, and has been the most stable philosophy of the last three decades of SCCA racing.

GA

[JeffYoung]

I simply cannot disagree with you more, my friend. It is because IT does not have "full" status that it has survived as long as it has, and has been the most stable philosophy of the last three decades of SCCA racing.

GA

I know. And we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I used to think you were pushing to "kill" IT with some of your ideas, but I get now you are not. Your vision for IT is what made it so popular in the 80s/90s -- regional only rules, regional only racing, "outlaw" stuff. I get that and appreciate it.

I just think that "racing" in general is so different now and that niche is really filled by the Chumpemons stuff, and DEs. IT has to find a new place. To me, that is combined with ST and LP Prod in a new "super" production type class.

But it is all a good discussino, and like I said, it took me a while, but I appreciate where you are coming from.

[seckerich]

I know. And we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I used to think you were pushing to "kill" IT with some of your ideas, but I get now you are not. Your vision for IT is what made it so popular in the 80s/90s -- regional only rules, regional only racing, "outlaw" stuff. I get that and appreciate it.

I just think that "racing" in general is so different now and that niche is really filled by the Chumpemons stuff, and DEs. IT has to find a new place. To me, that is combined with ST and LP Prod in a new "super" production type class.

But it is all a good discussino, and like I said, it took me a while, but I appreciate where you are coming from.

IT already has the draw for Chump/lemons type drivers. Cars can run long races with multiple drivers. More regions need to get on board the enduro series and help promote the cost of shared participation.

How would you like to be looking at the concord agreement with IT as one of the catagories destined to be screwed? Keep your head down and watch the sparks fly, this will be fun. I know I took note of the vote my director made and am not very happy. Hope she is ready to explain at St Simon.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I simply cannot disagree with you more, my friend. It is because IT does not have "full" status that it has survived as long as it has, and has been the most stable philosophy of the last three decades of SCCA racing.

GA

I agree with Greg here 100%. If it would have been under the microscope, with CRB members trying to apply comp adjustments all over the place, it would be just another class because the IT community doesn't like that BS.

IF, and only if, the CRB has the foresight to realize that it thrives BECAUSE of the lack of fiddling, they COULD not mess with it. But as Greg has pointed out numerous times, he seems to know that is simply pissing in the wind at every turn and could never be possible.

We will never know because the juice may not be worth the squeeze.

[Flyinglizard]

Not sure Andy,
I have 6 ex IT cars at the shop for conversion to HP or Chump. One customer asked about all of the Sciroccos. "Well, SCCA treats the Rabbit and Rocco the same. They run at the same weight, so why use a car that is 7in taller? " Exit Rabbits.

The 9/1 compression ,A1 cars cant run with the MK3 Golf Or Honda. So they are here to go Prod, where the 2.0 is listed in FP, and all of the 1.8 can run the same engine and weight.
The non adjustment due to the "process" pushed these cars away. Some went straight to Chump as the value of the 1.8 cars went from 5000$ to 2000$
Maybe the A1 with JH should add 150# and go to ITC?

The allowance of megasquirt for all injected cars dr0ve a few more to Prod. A simple adjustment to the CIS cars by around 100# may have left those cars in ITB and not HP. I hear" that why spend 1500$+ for a regional only class when I can move the car to Hprod spend a little more and race more cars with closer comp." The car only cost 2500$ for this guy. The MS engines are well trimmed to 7000RPM where the CIS has issues over 6500.

So I believe that the non timely corrections has run a few from IT racing to other venues. Luckily Prod is a good fit for many, but Chumpemons has taken many of my best funded customers.

Keep in mind that I dont consider the Chump racing weekend similar to SCCA. I cant talk my Chump only drivers to racing SCCA with all of the down time. That is a separate subject and problem That i can't see SCCA adjusting to. It is simply an option that did not exist a few years ago that is siphoning off cars and drivers. I now have 5of 6 Chump team drivers in SCCA.

Adjustments based upon results, bringing back outlier cars are bad for the outliers, but good for the pack. Treat the pack better. IMHO and more will stay.
IMHO, MM

[lawtonglenn]

...one guy has an unlimited budget and one guy can spend 1/10th of that

∞ /10 = ∞

no comment on the current argument, I'm just being a nerd jerk