ITS Camaro

[DSeefeldt]

Ron:

Back in the mid 80's to early 90' I raced a 2.6L V6 Capri out here in the San Francisco Region. Folks said there was no way that car could beat an RX 3 let alone win a race. We accomplished both in 20+ ITA fields at the time. We met the challenge with a legal car. I guess that's what intrigues me with the 3.4 V6 Camaro. Can it be done successfully? That's the question.

Darryl

[Ron Earp]

Well, we just did a similar thing with the ITS Mustangs. The Camaro is essentially the same car, so I think you could make it into an ITS contender.

[JeffYoung]

I'm starting to look at a new car, and if I stay in IT it will be ITS.

I looked at the Camaro at length when we were voting on classification. Has smaller frontal area than the Moostang, and probably better basic suspension geometry. Stock power output is good but you will need to make around 60 more to be competitive in ITS which may or may not be an issue with this motor. Tuning was not aggressive, and the earlier cars (93s) had a less restrictive intake tract.

Rear drums are an annoyance.

I think it will handle and stop. I also think it can make the power but there is no guarantee.

[Ron Earp]

Get you a mullet and a Bitching Camaro! I'd help build one of those. The front suspension is, if the diagram I have is correct, quite a bit different from the Mustang. The rear has a panhard setup as stock and it can certainly be improved upon for adjustability. The 3.4L is a bit of an unknown though and knowledge is thin on the ground. At least it is a proper 60 degree V6 though.

[lateapex911]

Ron:

Back in the mid 80's to early 90' I raced a 2.6L V6 Capri out here in the San Francisco Region. Folks said there was no way that car could beat an RX 3 let alone win a race. We accomplished both in 20+ ITA fields at the time. We met the challenge with a legal car. I guess that's what intrigues me with the 3.4 V6 Camaro. Can it be done successfully? That's the question.

Darryl

I remember that car. Yes, there were some great ITA fields and good racing back then!

[DSeefeldt]

Ron:

I know the suspension pretty well on 3rd and 4th Gen Camaros from my A-Sedan experience. I think the car could hunt. I have the car. We'll see.

Darryl

[erlrich]

Guess I'll have to be the dissenting vote on this. IT is a power/weight class, and IMO if you can't get reasonably close to the listed weight you aren't going to be competitive against the top cars in the class. The 4th gen Camaro is going to have a tough time getting under 3,000 lbs in IT trim, much less 2680 (or even 2815 in ITR). If you just want to beat up on your local IT crew, then yeah, maybe. Our ITS cars here in the DC Region just barely outrun our top ITA cars. But in a strong ITS region (like the SE), or at the ARRC, fuggetaboutit. This is why my '02 is now a track day toy and not an ITR car.

And yeah, sucks about not being able to use the stock wheels. I actually sent a request in a couple of years ago to get that allowance in, but it was shot down.

[Ron Earp]

. The 4th gen Camaro is going to have a tough time getting under 3,000 lbs in IT trim,

I'd like to buy one of these things and try. I'm not a Chevy guy at all, but it'd be interesting to see what could be done with one.

Aw snap, $750 for one in my town and on sale too!! "Must go buy this Sunday"

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/cto/4065302668.html

I bet $400 cold cash gets me a bitching Camaro. Put it on the lift, get some beer, call the boys and take that thing apart.

[Knestis]

I'd like to buy one of these things and try. I'm not a Chevy guy at all, but it'd be interesting to see what could be done with one.

Aw snap, $750 for one in my town and on sale too!! "Must go buy this Sunday"

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/cto/4065302668.html

I bet $400 cold cash gets me a bitching Camaro. Put it on the lift, get some beer, call the boys and take that thing apart.

"... The reason why I'm selling it is that I want to buy a honda."

Probably going to ITB.

K

[joeg]

I don't know...he's got to look at the cat.

[JeffYoung]

Guess I'll have to be the dissenting vote on this. IT is a power/weight class, and IMO if you can't get reasonably close to the listed weight you aren't going to be competitive against the top cars in the class. The 4th gen Camaro is going to have a tough time getting under 3,000 lbs in IT trim, much less 2680 (or even 2815 in ITR). If you just want to beat up on your local IT crew, then yeah, maybe. Our ITS cars here in the DC Region just barely outrun our top ITA cars. But in a strong ITS region (like the SE), or at the ARRC, fuggetaboutit. This is why my '02 is now a track day toy and not an ITR car.

And yeah, sucks about not being able to use the stock wheels. I actually sent a request in a couple of years ago to get that allowance in, but it was shot down.

The listed weight is based on stock hp remember, and 25% gain

If you see some of the gains with teh 3.4 that other large displacement ITS motors have seen (i.e. 40-50% or perhaps even more) then you are good to go because either you are competitive at the higher than listed weight, or the listed weight gets moved up if the ITAC gets asked to reweigh the car based on known power.

So the kicker here is the 3.4. If it can make 195-200 whp at 2700-2800 lbs, it will be competitive. Over that, gravy.

[quadzjr]

Will the ITAC adjust a car if it has known hp above or below the classed percentage without a request?

[Chip42]

it happens, but usually a letter gets written by a member of the AC/CRB so we have somethign to respond to. the new system is pretty rigid like that.

and yeah, per hp/weight, the mustang does well against real, strong ITS fields and after a very short development time (granted, an intense one) from only 1 shop and it's overweight. one of the secrets is a power band you could eat off of. its vast and flat. yeah, it might not peak at the higher hp/weight in the class, but it can scoot off all the midrange stuff and get to it's top speed faster, meaning more time at high speed, and thus lower lap times. torque is your friend, and it's pretty well linked to displacement though there is by no means a fixed tq/displacement ratio.

[erlrich]

The listed weight is based on stock hp remember, and 25% gain

If you see some of the gains with the 3.4 that other large displacement ITS motors have seen (i.e. 40-50% or perhaps even more) then you are good to go because either you are competitive at the higher than listed weight, or the listed weight gets moved up if the ITAC gets asked to reweigh the car based on known power.

So the kicker here is the 3.4. If it can make 195-200 whp at 2700-2800 lbs, it will be competitive. Over that, gravy.

This would/could be the saving grace for either the 3.4 or 3.8. Since it doesn't impact the street legality I am still working to see what kind of power the 3.8L motor will make.

Which begs the question, is there a generally accepted estimate for how much of the 25% expected IT gains come from bolt-ons & tuning, versus extensive motor work (b&b, bore, comp bump)? I've always had the impression you could get more the half of the expected gains from just intake/headers/exhaust/tuning, but I have no data to back that up.

[JeffYoung]

This would/could be the saving grace for either the 3.4 or 3.8. Since it doesn't impact the street legality I am still working to see what kind of power the 3.8L motor will make.

Which begs the question, is there a generally accepted estimate for how much of the 25% expected IT gains come from bolt-ons & tuning, versus extensive motor work (b&b, bore, comp bump)? I've always had the impression you could get more the half of the expected gains from just intake/headers/exhaust/tuning, but I have no data to back that up.

And I don't think there is any. My experience with ITS motors is with the Mustang, the L series Datsun motors, and mine, and to a lesser extent the 1.8 Miata.

Each saw different gains in different areas. The Mustangs see huge gains from tuning as the factory timing and fuel curves are pitiful, my car needed the short runner FI intake and a good exhaust to make any power, the L motors see big gains on the xhaust side, and Miatas need to rev to make power.

You won't really know until you dig into it.

HOwever, the 3.8 GM motor (that's the Buick V6 right?) is a pretty well known quantity. I'd think you should be able to get a rough estimate of what it will make in IT trim.

I was able to do so with the Rover V8 as was Ron with the Mustang, which is why I made the decision to invest in an FI motor and why Ron built the Mustang.