2010 race groups for the I.T.SPEC*tacular

[Racerlinn]

I will
My proposed schedule (which is worth less than $0.02):

Group 1 SM, SSM
Group 2 ITB, ITS
Group 3 SRF, EP, FP, HP
Group 4 ITA, IT7, ITC
Group 5 ITR, ITE, AS, STO, STU
Group 6 FF, CFF, FC, CFC

Allows double dipping Miatii, makes Miata drivers and stewards happy (that was an ugly deal last year with them), and lets the majority of IT folks see each others race groups.
Sunday morning in the rain this year was interesting, and I tried to be good and actually went to bed "early" :toast:

[TAC]

I will
My proposed schedule (which is worth less than $0.02):

Group 1 SM, SSM
Group 2 ITB, ITS
Group 3 SRF, EP, FP, HP, GTL
Group 4 ITA, IT7, ITC
Group 5 ITR, ITE, AS, STO, STU
Group 6 FF, CFF, FC, CFC, FE, FM

Allows double dipping Miatii, makes Miata drivers and stewards happy (that was an ugly deal last year with them), and lets the majority of IT folks see each others race groups.
Sunday morning in the rain this year was interesting, and I tried to be good and actually went to bed "early" :toast:

O.K., first race meeting is over and the classes are set. So after a long pause I can say I like this order. Though I may switch group 5 and 6 since the formula group was last in 2008. Only other issue is whether the SM/SSM group will then be ruining steward lunch time both days. I guess that's better than goin' home time both evenings.

[R2 Racing]

So is this the grouping then?

Group 1 SM, SSM
Group 2 ITB, ITS
Group 3 SRF, EP, FP, HP, GTL
Group 4 ITA, IT7, ITC
Group 5 ITR, ITE, AS, STO, STU
Group 6 FF, CFF, FC, CFC, FE, FM

I'm ok with that.

[TAC]

So is this the grouping then?

Group 1 SM, SSM
Group 2 ITB, ITS
Group 3 SRF, EP, FP, HP, GTL
Group 4 ITA, IT7, ITC
Group 5 ITR, ITE, AS, STO, STU
Group 6 FF, CFF, FC, CFC, FE, FM

I'm ok with that.

I'm thinking more like this.

Group 1 SM, SSM
Group 2 ITB, ITS
Group 3 SRF, EP, FP, HP, GTL
Group 4 ITA, IT7, ITC
Group 5 FF, CFF, FC, CFC, FE, FM
Group 6 ITR, ITE, AS, STO, STU

[jumbojimbo]

One question on double dipping, why do we generally charge so much for double dipping? Double dippers don't cost us that much in sanction and insurance do they?

I know we're trying to maximize our income, but the number of double dippers is very low.

Why don't we charge a more nominal fee like $125? Sure, profit is less per car but wouldn't a ridiculously low entry fee encourage a double dipping?

My thought is that the more cars who double dip then that pads the field. And what increases car count more than anything else? Car count. People want to race in races with big fields. Even mid-level drivers want someone to race against. So if you can get more people to double dip and this causes even 1 or 2 extra regular entries, then you've got win-win all around.

Another scenario: STU. I've thought about running STU just for the track time. But it's too expensive at the full price. If the price were $125, I might be able to convince a couple of other ITC guys to run. We wouldn't be running to win STU, but all we care about is racing each other anyway. As long as we stay out of everyone else way, we get more track time, club makes more money.

[R2 Racing]

I'd double-dip too and bring our new ITB '92 Civic DX in addition to my ITA Integra if I knew I wasn't paying 2x entry fees. I really want to see what that ITB car will do at Mid Ohio.

[924Guy]

I'd double-dip too and bring our new ITB '92 Civic DX in addition to my ITA Integra if I knew I wasn't paying 2x entry fees. I really want to see what that ITB car will do at Mid Ohio.

Prolly a 1:47.2.

[TAC]

One question on double dipping, why do we generally charge so much for double dipping? Double dippers don't cost us that much in sanction and insurance do they?

I know we're trying to maximize our income, but the number of double dippers is very low.

Why don't we charge a more nominal fee like $125? Sure, profit is less per car but wouldn't a ridiculously low entry fee encourage a double dipping?

My thought is that the more cars who double dip then that pads the field. And what increases car count more than anything else? Car count. People want to race in races with big fields. Even mid-level drivers want someone to race against. So if you can get more people to double dip and this causes even 1 or 2 extra regular entries, then you've got win-win all around.

Another scenario: STU. I've thought about running STU just for the track time. But it's too expensive at the full price. If the price were $125, I might be able to convince a couple of other ITC guys to run. We wouldn't be running to win STU, but all we care about is racing each other anyway. As long as we stay out of everyone else way, we get more track time, club makes more money.

Sounds like a good idea. My only concern would be keeping the refunds straight.

To clarify it would have to be the same car/ same driver dbl. dipping in two classes. Correct?

[jumbojimbo]

Sounds like a good idea. My only concern would be keeping the refunds straight.

To clarify it would have to be the same car/ same driver dbl. dipping in two classes. Correct?

Correct, that is what I was thinking of. A straight double dip.

[RacerBill]

Looks good to me, Todd. I can live with Group 2 two years in a row!!!!!!! BTW, what course are we running this year?

[Butch Kummer]

One question on double dipping, why do we generally charge so much for double dipping? Double dippers don't cost us that much in sanction and insurance do they?

My understanding of the situation:

The sanction fee (a base fee then $15 per entry over 150 entries) is per race entry, so we have to pay twice for double-dippers. We still have to pay the same amount for track rental, ambulance, wrecker, etc., so there's no cost savings there to the host region.

The insurance is $29.50 per car for the weekend, so double-dipping gives us a break there. Ostensibly a double-dipper still consumes one entry's worth of alcohol & food at the Saturday social, so there COULD be a savings there as well.

At the 2009 ARRC by GRM we offered a discount of $25-$50 to people running multiple races (Sprints, Three Hour, Bonus race) with the same car, except for the Pro-IT. Since half the Pro-IT entry fee is returned to the racers in the form of prize money, we don't offer Pro-IT combination discounts. We did not offer "true" double-dipping discounts (ITA & SM, for instance), but I'll have to think about it. The numbers don't support a $100+ discount, however, particularly since the driver gets the benefit of more track time and/or being able to split travel costs with a buddy.

[jumbojimbo]

I'm not sure you're getting my logic, Butch. First, remember I'm talking about only pure double dippers, SM/ITA, ITx/STU. Not shared cars. And I'm really only talking about normal regional races here, not ARRC, Pro races, etc.

Your note on insurance per "car" wasn't clear, so worst case I'll assume that the incremental cost to the region of a double dipper is Sanction+Insurance~$50. That should cover the occasional extra trophy too. Let's assume someone who drives two sessions won't eat more food at the party and might even be too tired to drink as much beer.

Track, workers, party, etc are fixed costs, these don't change whether SM#27 runs an extra session as ITA#27 or not. And the driver has already made a contribution to the fixed costs with his first entry. I don't see an incremental cost whether workers are dealing with 20 cars in a race or 23. I'd actually argue the workers would enjoy having a few extra cars.

What I am doing is challenging the notion that the price we should charge is the full "value" of the session and then discount it a bit to try to encourage double dipping. I am saying that this does not work and does not encourage double dipping. Drivers don't see double dipping as providing a full entry of value and they don't need the extra track time.

What's the downside to charging a much lower price for DD? Lost revenue. How many double dippers do we normally see? 3? So let's say that is $1,000 of entry. Now if you charge $125 and get just those same three dd's then you've lost $600.

What's the upside of a much lower price? Potentially more entries and potentially more revenue. I could be wrong but I don't think you'll get the same 3 dd entries at a much lower price. I think you'll get more. Enough to make up the difference in price? Maybe, maybe not. But even if you get only 5 or 6 dd entries instead of 3, now your lost revenue is very very small. And, you now have more entries.

Which brings me back to why I think it's worth the relatively low risk. The entry multiplication effect (EMP). I strongly believe that what drives higher entry numbers is higher entry numbers. We all see it, when a race has 1 or 2 entries, people are reluctant to enter. But when you see 4 or 5 entries, interest builds and it becomes 6 or 7 entries. So in addition to getting more double dippers, I think you'll get more regular entries too. Which has upside revenue potential in addition to just the joy of seeing more cars on track.

ITFest isn't the perfect event for this idea. ITFest already uses the EMP to drive entries. ITFest gets big entries because everyone knows it will have big entries, the EMP effect in action. A better example is a little regional race with 4 ITA cars. Who wants to tow up for that? But make that 6 ITA cars and maybe it's worthwhile.

That's all I got, anything else and I'm in danger of

[jhooten]

Just a thought, since IT cars can run in STU I would consider not grouping STU in any group with IT. That would allow Two drivers to enter the same car in different groups giving you a potential bump in entries.

[dhardison]

Just a thought, since IT cars can run in STU I would consider not grouping STU in any group with IT. That would allow Two drivers to enter the same car in different groups giving you a potential bump in entries.

I agree! I'd love to run both ITE and STU, but since they're in the same run group that makes it a bit difficult.

[RacerBill]

Dan: You want to run ITC, ITE and STU??????????????

[dhardison]

Dan: You want to run ITC, ITE and STU??????????????

No, just ITE & STU. My car's not classed in ITC.

[TAC]

No, just ITE & STU. My car's not classed in ITC.

I think Bill has you confused with the ITC Hardison that posts also.

[RacerBill]

Yeah, my bad. But I have been really running the numbers for the double dip - would be worth running in group six.