Eurasian Engines - Proposal?

[Z3_GoCar]

Sounds like their going to take a front wheel drive Honda class and add some other front wheel drive options via various JDM/Euro market motors. Why not a reward for all strut based suspensions, not just the FWD struts? So, I'm not interested....

[coreyehcx]

Honestly there isn't much to gain for Honda's going the JDM/EDM route outside of availability and cheaper prices for long blocks.

[lateapex911]

Sounds like their going to take a front wheel drive Honda class and add some other front wheel drive options via various JDM/Euro market motors. Why not a reward for all strut based suspensions, not just the FWD struts? So, I'm not interested....

From the thread over on RRAX:
I suggested that they do some adders along those lines, James. So for, Peter doesn't seem to love it, LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkeane
Just a couple of points of clarification, the STAC have not changed the rear wheel drive multiplier. We have discussed it and we are going to continue to watch the performance levels. Jim (CRB member and friend) your STL Miata is currently only 60 pounds heavier than my Integra. I do not think we would change the RWD multiplier until after the Runoffs, and only if the data supports it.

I believe the bigger STL issue is to give the FWD strut cars an increased weight break. I do think a 5% (maybe more) deduct might be right for these cars. This would help the VW, Mazda, Neon, Nissan and Toyotas.

Interesting.
Peter, an interesting thought experiment would be to take a good RWD chassis from Honda and the best FWD chassis they have and put the same engine in them. Understand the driveline differences and adjust HP accordingly. So, in a race between an Integra and an S2000* say, with equal drivers, over an average track and a normal race distance, which will win? By how much? Most will say the S2000, and by more than 2.5% extra weight will equalize.
So, irregardless of the struts, the first thing** I see that needs to be nailed is the basic number for FWD vs RWD. Afterall, ALL cars are one or the other (or AWD). Once THAT is nailed, THEN a strut subtractor can be established.

I'd also suggest that, if you are going to give a subtractor to FWD cars with bad drive end geometry, then the same consideration should be given to RWD cars with bad drive end geometry. Now, you can do that as an adder, (as in add X% to cars with Double wishbone type suspensions on the drive end, OR, use those as the standard and subtract X% for cars that lack DW type suspensions on the drive end. Depends on what you consider your 'norm'. Seems like the bogey car has been the Integra, so yea, a subtractor for stut based cars would be the way to go.
Note that the X% RWD subtractor might not be the same percentage as the FWD subtractor. The committee might find that the negative effects of a bad suspension at the drive end is worse for a FWD car than a RWD car..

So, I'd see it playing out as something like:
Basic CC per pound math. (ie 1.8L =2430) Norm car is DW FWD.
RWD? Add 5%.
FWD with struts? Minus 2.5%
RWD with bad (non double wishbone type) suspension at drive end? Plus 5%, but minus 1%.
(Establish a policy on the order of math. ie, if RWD, add 5%, (2.0L =2700, plus 5%, (135) =2835, THEN minus 1% for a total of: 2806.65, rounded to 2805. OR, just use 4% from the start. Once rounding is done it likely makes little difference. 2700 x 4% =2808, rounded is 2810. Just do it the same every time)

So, a RWD car with a good suspension would be 7.5 % more than a FWD car with strut front.

I think the 5% factor is more appropriate, and looking at World Challenge weights backs that up. Also, HP levels are in the ITR-ish range, and experience there is that the FWD factor is pretty darn close.

Quote:
I am also making a pitch at the convention to allow non US spec engines in ST on a case by case basis. This would allow BMW to run the euro 2.0l in STL and will also help Nissan’s, Toyota’s, Subaru’s and VW.

PK
IF it helps diversity and getting more COMPETITIVE options, then I'm for it. I understand the issues are with understanding the allowances on a committee level, and that's tricky, but, overall, the pain is worth it.

*. Regarding the S2000, can you, Peter (since you were in on the inception of the class), or anyone, explain to me why the S2000 chassis is forbidden, BUT, the Miata (and, intheory, all cars like it) is allowed? Seems to me they share the same generic stuff. Yea wheelbase is different, but I KNOW you guys can't be parsing wheelbase differences as there aren't even chassis adders in the class. So what gives? Makes no sense to me.

[DoubleXL240Z]

I'm going to jump in again. My biggest concern about any of this is "case by case basis". That is absolute BS!!!
Future quote; "You let the JDM XYZ in, but MY Euro ZYX can't! Thats not fair!"
People are screaming for a stable rule set, but than we are looking at a case by case basis on JDM (yo) and Euro/Aussie etc. So when the Euro surprise shows up and kicks their ass, than it gets booted or a trailer attached to it. Not very stable!! We are very familiar with the USDM engines and their potential, lets leave it at that.
I can understand the arguement regarding a worthwhile Nissan engine or whatever, but maybe its time for another car or class.
I have seen( actually looked at numbers) the S42, a 315 HP 2l exotic. a M52B20? ( I believe) its a 2l version of the 2.5l BMW motor used in a million e30s and e36s, 8500 rpm 6 cylinder. I was talking with a BMW nerd, and he brought up like 5 motors most have never heard of, all under 2l all with crazy hp numbers.
Rant off, I gotta go add 90 lbs to my car now!!

[lateapex911]

I'm going to jump in again. My biggest concern about any of this is "case by case basis". That is absolute BS!!!
Future quote; "You let the JDM XYZ in, but MY Euro ZYX can't! Thats not fair!"
People are screaming for a stable rule set, but than we are looking at a case by case basis on JDM (yo) and Euro/Aussie etc. So when the Euro surprise shows up and kicks their ass, than it gets booted or a trailer attached to it. Not very stable!! We are very familiar with the USDM engines and their potential, lets leave it at that.
I can understand the arguement regarding a worthwhile Nissan engine or whatever, but maybe its time for another car or class.
I have seen( actually looked at numbers) the S42, a 315 HP 2l exotic. a M52B20? ( I believe) its a 2l version of the 2.5l BMW motor used in a million e30s and e36s, 8500 rpm 6 cylinder. I was talking with a BMW nerd, and he brought up like 5 motors most have never heard of, all under 2l all with crazy hp numbers.
Rant off, I gotta go add 90 lbs to my car now!!

Chris, I think what they are saying is actually consistent with what they are doing now. They currently exclude cars over a certain hp/litre threshold. It appears that they would do the same thing, using the same line in the sand, for non US models.

I really don't think somethings going to be allowed in, then get spanked with a lead paddle should it perform too well.

[coreyehcx]

All engines still have to be under the STL limitations for compression, lift, and obviously the rest of the rules so it doesn't really matter unless someone is running a cheater motor.

Pop the hood and that would be pretty easy to identify if someone is running a JDM/EDM S54, B16B, and on and on....a quick search on a smart phone.

I dont see why some are so worried about this, Hondas/Acuras would be easy enough to police. The Mazdas, BMWs, VWs, Toyotas and other makes Im sure all have experts for each one that could supply data in terms of what to watch for or police. I could easily put together a cheater list and submit if that would help for Hondas, I know others are very knowledgeable about their makes and their over seas counterparts like Chip and his Toyota's, knestis with his, and many others.

Would that help at all?

I was questioned a little bit even about my B18B1 at Drivers School by the head instructors. Hey nice car, is that an oem manifold, is that the oem throttle body.....ha ha yes and yes..he so happened to be very familiar with Hondas.

[Z3_GoCar]

From the thread over on RRAX:
I suggested that they do some adders along those lines, James. So for, Peter doesn't seem to love it, LOL.

Between '98, when BMW stopped importing four cylinder motors into the US, and '12 BMW's built several metric tons of 2.0 liter motors, most are economy motors designed for low-mid range inexpensive commuters, and they make the same HP as the 1.8l m42 and my 1.9l m44 ~143hp. They're designed as decent hp, good torque motors for a relatively heavy (~3000lbs) car.

The only motor that would be interesting would be the N-45 2.0 liter; however, they only made 2600 of these in '06. It's a 173hp motor, even race built it won't match up with an Acura 1.8 at 150-200lbs lighter and making the exact same hp. So, to even get close takes a very limited production homologation special, and then it's still off by a country mile.