Hey, hey, ho, ho. SFI has got to go..

[Speed Raycer]

I must have dozed off on this one... WhenTF did this go down??????

[lateapex911]

Don't hold back your hate just for the lawyers, Derek, be more even handed and spread it to people who milk things for all they are worth, and the system that allows it...

I actually have some friends in each of your "hate groups"...they just want equal love!

You say, "Hey, it's fine, it's for my safety, and racings expensive anyway"....well, sure, but the point here is that it's extra unneeded expense, extra hassle, and it basically puts money into an organizations hands that does nothing to increase my actual safety!

[Xian]

I must have dozed off on this one... WhenTF did this go down??????

x2

As someone who has a new car build in progress, I'm very interested in seeing where/when this was published. I've got a brand new AFFF system in the garage and a car that's about 95% ready for a log book. Don't tell me that the firesystem I have is a paperweight now.

Christian

[jjjanos]

Seems like in this case, yes, SCCA did a decent job (or tried to, at least) - all existing cars are grandfathered.

Which does nothing to protect them from lawsuits. In fact, it probably makes them more likely to lose.
Plantiff Attorney - "So, being fully aware of the dangers of uncertified fire systems, SCCA allowed my client to compete in a car using substandard equipment?"
SCCA - "Yes."
Plantiff Attorney - "Your honor, we ask for immediate judgement with triple damages on account of the defendents own admission of gross negligence."

As builder of a new car in addition to owner of an existing car, I don't have a big problem with buying a new system that is approved; this IMO is a reasonable expense in my safety, and I truly do go to extensive lengths to be safe (note that I was an early adopter of ISAAC and center net).

The certification increases your safety, if and only if, SFI conducts random and unannounced testing of both completed product and the manufacturing process. Anything else and the only two things you are relying upon are the willingness of the manufacturer to pay SFI's protection money and the manufacturer's reputation. W/o certification, you are relying on the manufacturer's reputation. I.e. no delta.

x2

As someone who has a new car build in progress, I'm very interested in seeing where/when this was published. I've got a brand new AFFF system in the garage and a car that's about 95% ready for a log book. Don't tell me that the firesystem I have is a paperweight now.

Christian

I won't tell you that. What you have is a very effective fire system that you can continue to use.... as long as you have a fire bottle in your car (assuming it is IT).

[JamesB]

So Jeff, what is your solution if SFI and FIA are not enough?

PS- Don't even suggest yet another standards instatution. You already have 2, what is your solution above and beyond the two that already exist. Adding a 3rd is not a solution.

[jjjanos]

So Jeff, what is your solution if SFI and FIA are not enough?

It is not that SFI and FIA are not enough. It is that SFI and FIA are too much, or more accurately, the SFI system creates, for them, a powerful set of incentives that undermine the stated purpose for their existence, i.e. driver safety.

1. Direct conflict of interest. I believe that SFI gets a fee on each certified unit that is sold. SFI's incentive is now maximizing units sold and no longer devising the best standard.
2. Direct conflict of interest. SFI only collects a fee if there is a standard. When examining whether a standard needs to be established, SFI will always determine it is needed.
3. Indirect conflict of interest. The companies being regulated by SFI write the regulations. Problem - the standard will be written to the lowest level needed to obtain standard's committee approval. No member sitting on the committee will support a standard that negatively impacts their business. (I don't recall what safety item this was about, but I seem to recall SFI trying to write standards for a product in which the industry was split about 50/50 between two technologies. Group A wants to outlaw group B. Group B wants to outlaw group A. Result - no standard.)
4. AFAIK, lack of verification. Does SFI do random checks of both finished product and quality control?

Solutions:
1. SCCA simply states the minimum requirement for safety equipment (see roll bars) and put the responsibility back on the consumer who purchases the item.
2. Disband SFI. Replace with an organization similar to Underwriters Lab which, I believe, does not have income dependent on the sales of certified products. Eliminate the involvement of manufacturers from the standards process.

[Tristan Smith]

Hey Christian, on that link you provided to the IOPort system you bought it says this.....


New rules for the SCCA Club Racing in 2009 requires a SFI 17.1 Certified fire system in all newly logbooked cars in classes requiring fire systems. Upgrade to a SFI 17.1 fire system for just $10.00. Additionally, SCCA will allow the club racer to use the ESS refill kits without requiring any re-certification. This is a great advantage for the club racer over any other system since if they are fired, they must be sent back to the factory to be refilled and re-certified.

So is that true? And if so, doesn't that bypass the issue? I realize that that we are talking about re-certifing every two years, but come on....If I can refill myself?

[jjjanos]

Hey Christian, on that link you provided to the IOPort system you bought it says this.....


New rules for the SCCA Club Racing in 2009 requires a SFI 17.1 Certified fire system in all newly logbooked cars in classes requiring fire systems. Upgrade to a SFI 17.1 fire system for just $10.00. Additionally, SCCA will allow the club racer to use the ESS refill kits without requiring any re-certification. This is a great advantage for the club racer over any other system since if they are fired, they must be sent back to the factory to be refilled and re-certified.

So is that true? And if so, doesn't that bypass the issue? I realize that that we are talking about re-certifing every two years, but come on....If I can refill myself?

Unless it says so in the GCR, I wouldn't count on it.

[Xian]

Hey Christian, on that link you provided to the IOPort system you bought it says this.....


New rules for the SCCA Club Racing in 2009 requires a SFI 17.1 Certified fire system in all newly logbooked cars in classes requiring fire systems. Upgrade to a SFI 17.1 fire system for just $10.00. Additionally, SCCA will allow the club racer to use the ESS refill kits without requiring any re-certification. This is a great advantage for the club racer over any other system since if they are fired, they must be sent back to the factory to be refilled and re-certified.

So is that true? And if so, doesn't that bypass the issue? I realize that that we are talking about re-certifing every two years, but come on....If I can refill myself?

Unless it says so in the GCR, I wouldn't count on it.

Well... here's some interesting info. I just got off the phone with Tom Turner (President ESS) and here's what he said (and I paraphrase): Since we are running in a class that doesn't require a plumbed fire system and we are simply substituing a plumbed system for the legal, non-SFI handheld system we should be just fine running a non-SFI plumbed fire system. FWIW, he's also currently a national scrutineer for SCCA. He also confirmed that the ESS systems do not require 2 year re-inspection and that they may be refilled by the user and maintain their SCCA club approval.

FWIW, he seemed like a super nice guy and very knowledgeable.

Christian

[jjjanos]

Well... here's some interesting info. I just got off the phone with Tom Turner (President ESS) and here's what he said (and I paraphrase): Since we are running in a class that doesn't require a plumbed fire system and we are simply substituing a plumbed system for the legal, non-SFI handheld system we should be just fine running a non-SFI plumbed fire system. FWIW, he's also currently a national scrutineer for SCCA. He also confirmed that the ESS systems do not require 2 year re-inspection and that they may be refilled by the user and maintain their SCCA club approval.

FWIW, he seemed like a super nice guy and very knowledgeable.

Christian

According to the 2009 GCR, he is in error. You're car must either meet the fire system rules and/or the extinguisher rules. Cars registered 2009 or later have specific requirements for a system.

2009 GCR

9.3.22. FIRE SYSTEM
All cars shall be equipped with an On-Board Fire System except Showroom Stock, Touring, Spec Miata, and Improved Touring.
A. On-Board Fire System Requirements
Cars registered after 1/1/09 shall comply with the following onboard fire system requirements:
• Systems certified to SFI specification 17.1
• Those listed by the FIA on Technical List No. 16
The following information must be visible of the unit:
• Certification label
• Capacity
• Type of extinguishing agent
• Weight, or volume, of the extinguishing agent
The following is acceptable for cars registered before 1/1/09:
On-board fire systems shall use Halon 1301 or 1211, with a five pound minimum capacity (by weight). Alternatively, on-board fire systems may use AFFF or equivalent surfactant foam material, 2.25 liter minimum capacity (by volume). All AFFF fire system bottles shall incorporate a functional pressure gauge and shall be marked with the manufacturer’s recommended “filled weight.” CO2 cartridge propellant fire extinguishing
systems are permitted provided that the seal of the manufacturer specified CO2 cartridge is not punctured and the fire bottle is equal to the weight specified by the system manufacturer.

B. Hand-Held Fire Extinguisher Requirements
The following are acceptable for Showroom Stock, Touring and Improved Touring cars:

Please not the highlighted words. Acceptable does not mean required.

Sporting regs clearly say that everyone other than touring, spec miata, SS and IT must run a fire sytem. If you are required or allowed to run system and the car is registered 2009 or later, it must meet the new minimum standards. If you are required or allowed to run a system and the car is registered 2008 or earlier, the old standards apply.

In fact, there is no allowance in the GCR to mount either a fire system or handheld extinguisher in an IT car.

Showroom stock category rules: 9.1.7.D.2 - requires either a fire system or extinguisher compliant with 9.3.22
Touring category: 9.1.D.10.C - requires either a fire system or extinguisher compliant with 9.3.22
Spec Miata - 9.1.8.C.9.b - requires either a fire system or extinguisher compliant with 9.3.22
Improved Touring - 9.1.3.B. "... competition adjustments, other than as outlined in section 9.1.3.C, are not allowed. Other than those specifically allowed by these rules, no component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, altered, or removed."
Improved Touring - 9.1.3.C - NADA about fire systems or fire extinguishers.
Improved Touring - 9.1.3.D -

AUTHORIZED MODIFICATIONS
The following modifications are authorized on all Improved Touring Category cars....

NADA about fire systems or fire extinguishers

Improved Touring 9.1.3.D.10:
Safety
a. The stock fuel tank may be replaced with a fuel cell. The fuel cell shall be located within twelve (12) inches of the original fuel tank location. Additional reinforcement may be added to support the fuel cell, but such reinforcement shall not attach to the roll cage. Floor pan may be modified for installation. See GCR Section 9.3.26., for requirements.
b. Spare wheels and tires may be removed.
c. Air bag systems shall be disarmed and may be removed.
d. If so equipped, the rolling door lock mechanism may be deactivated by unplugging the components.

You'll note the absence of any mention of fire systems or extinguishers.

Since IT cars are only allowed those modifications specifically required or allowed by the GCR and our category rules neither allow or require fire systems or extinguishers, we are all illegal.

[ekim952522000]

x2

As someone who has a new car build in progress, I'm very interested in seeing where/when this was published. I've got a brand new AFFF system in the garage and a car that's about 95% ready for a log book. Don't tell me that the firesystem I have is a paperweight now.

Christian

Christian is yuor system on this list? Mine is I have the SPA system. If it is listed you are ok.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...her_system.pdf

[Xian]

I won't tell you that. What you have is a very effective fire system that you can continue to use.... as long as you have a fire bottle in your car (assuming it is IT).

That looks like the route I'm going to have to go...

Christian is yuor system on this list? Mine is I have the SPA system. If it is listed you are ok.
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...her_system.pdf

I didn't see it... I've got this one: http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant...egory_Code=ESS But don't remember if it has the "extra" $10 upgrade to SFI... the system was bought middle of last year.

F*ck. Is this enough to get me racing with NASA? Definitely getting closer to going somewhere else.

Christian

[pgipson]

...F*ck. Is this enough to get me racing with NASA? Definitely getting closer to going somewhere else.
Christian

If anything, NASA is even more in bed with SFI/FIA requirements than SCCA is. 2 year rule on window nets, 5 year rule on FIA seats, 5 year rule on FIA cells (and approved cells are the only option apparently). Not to mention SFI 38.1. If racing was this dangerous 10 years ago, how did we make it to this point?

[1stGenBoy]

"Everybody who thinks that companies getting full bottles shipped to them for recertification will simply ship them back w/o discharge but with the recharge fee - raise your hand."

Not on my watch!!!!! Every FIA bottle or any bottle we recieve for recertification or a recharge goes through the WHOLE process. No short cuts!

AFFF bottles and FIA bottles have always had to have recertification every two years.

The kicker is the manufactures will not allow us to recertify a bottle if it is more than two years out of the service date and the bottles are only good for 10 years.

As a licensed and UPS certified HAZ shipper I can tell you the Fed's do not take kindly to shipping things like this without the proper documents. Fines start at $10K and go up fast. People have been caught and it is not pretty amd don't even think about shipping by the postal service for these .

Not my rules so don't flame me.....

Bob