Street tires in IT? My Review

[Knestis]

Seems to me there's some arguing here against something that hasn't even been suggested.

K

[Xian]

Yeah right. When the fleet is town, the bars "could" see more business and the prostitutes "may" be walking bowlegged for a few days.

Insanity: Doing the same thing over and expecting different results

- Albert Einstein

The goal isn't to go slower. The goal is to spend less on tires. That leaves a googolplex of other ways to spend that money.

Moreover, name one freaking successful series where people didn't spend to the limit of the rules?
Pull the other leg, it's the one with bells. How many thousands of dollars do people have in their $500 POS Le Chumpmons cars?

And production was never conceived as a category where people spent more on a single season's development than I've spent in my entire racing career. That fart has already left the rectum. This proposal isn't going to stop the consumption of beans. It's just simply saying that we eat the vegetarian beans instead of the pork and beans. We're still going to be sitting around the camp fire letting 'em rip.

Excellent. They want to run to mid-pack to DFL using street tires and underdeveloped cars. Where is the need for a new set of rules to make this happen? Under the existing rules set, they can still run mid-pack to DFL using street tires and underdeveloped cars.

Can you point out where Chip (or I) have suggested:

1- new rules for those running street tires.
2- that costs can be contained when the culture doesn't support it.

You're coming across as a frothing at the mouth Vegan Raw Food-ist.

[Chip42]

I DID say 180tw rule is added for the STC. But that's kinda the point, and only within the challenge group.

[StephenB]

I DID say 180tw rule is added for the STC. But that's kinda the point, and only within the challenge group.

I would suggest not calling it a rule but instead your definition of street tire in the street tire challenge. And that definition or even clarification is a tire with a tread wear 180 or higher. (You can even add a word to the beginning of that sentence that says "un-shaved". This really isn't a "rules change"

And yes I agree with kirk completely!
Stephen

[dickita15]

I applaud the missionary work that the Blethen’s and others are doing in the street tire world. The success that the IT7 guys up here have had in changing the paradigm in their little microcosm is an interesting data point and very encouraging.
The fact of the matter is we are not ready for any kind of rule change. There is not enough knowledge about running streets to make any kind of a decision. If more racers are willing to show us all that racing on streets is fun and gives savings that may change. How do you do that, you get a sub set of people running get together and agree to do it showing the rest of us how good it is. Before IT7 was a real class up here we had a race within a race and bought our own gaudy recycled bowling trophy that we awarded back in the paddock to the winning IT7 in ITA. I fought hard for that $2 trophy. Out trophy presentation had more hoopla than the region’s for ITA.


I think streets could be a good thing. I am struck by the fact that 50% of SCCA licensed drivers compete in two weekends a year or less. I would love it if it was easier for those guys to come out more often. Maybe if they thought it was not a waste to drag the car out without a new set or Ho Hos we would see them more often.


And yes the NER IT7 guys should go the additional step from Nittos to true streets but we are not going to until the missionaries do the noble work of testing the theory. After all we are not exactly early adopters of technology are we?

[jjjanos]

Can you point out where Chip (or I) have suggested:

1- new rules for those running street tires.

So I can run Hoosiers and be part of this challenge? Oh, wait, I can't. That's a rule.

2- that costs can be contained when the culture doesn't support it.

So you acknowledge this won't do anything other than make us wear a condom after having a vasectomy?

There is no cost-containment culture. So, what's the point of this?

[Xian]

So I can run Hoosiers and be part of this challenge? Oh, wait, I can't. That's a rule.



So you acknowledge this won't do anything other than make us wear a condom after having a vasectomy?

There is no cost-containment culture. So, what's the point of this?

Are you trying to be obtuse or just argumentative?

A group of racers (let's call them friends) are having a "contest" amongst themselves during the IT* Race Group. They all agree to run a certain type of tires. Per the rules, you can run any tire you want in IT* but I doubt that you'll be invited over to their paddock for beers when they're recounting who beat whom within their group of friends.

No rules added to the IT section of the GCR.
No new class added to the results sheet.
No reduction in total entries for IT*

As far as your attempt to derail the point (again) of cost containment... Yes, we all AGREE that there's no way to contain costs within a culture that doesn't value it. Nobody is trying to do so. Instead, Chip (and others) are trying to foster a new culture where it's not only acceptable but encouraged not to go full-tilt crazy on 10/10ths builds and sticker/shaved/whatever tires for each race weekend. Basically a bunch of like-minded people are saying "fuck it, why should we spend XXX+$400 when we can spend XXX, have just as much fun, and race the same people?".

Again, I'm not sure if you're missing something basic to the conversation here or just actively playing the part of surely curmudgeon.

[JeffYoung]

First off, to be clear, I'm totally fine with guys running street tires in IT and having inter race contests and trophies. No issue with that.

I just have a hard time believing that this is the end game. If it isn't, and we are really trying to change the culture and move IT to street tires and ban R comps, then I see a crap ton of issues we'd have to deal with to maintain the competitive balance we have now.

That's the harm/issue I see, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Oh, and FancyPants (jjanos)? Yeah, he'd argue with a supermodel giving him a blowjob.

I completely agree that the "want" has to be there as well... but you can't get there on "want" alone anymore than you or I can "want" our way into a competitive F1 seat.

Help me understand... If we can't rules ourselves into a cheaper place (and there's been no suggestion that there will be a rules rewrite for street tires) and we can't change the culture of "want"ing to build a top car or win and the tires won't make much of a difference to the costs then exactly *how* might this be an example of something that could hurt the category. Either it makes no difference (as has been suggested) or it is potentially something that could be embraced by IT "culture" and drive a change from within. And if there is a "change from within" are you against it because it's different or counter to what serves you best?

FWIW, I say some of this ^^^ tongue in cheek but really, what's it matter if a handful of folks want to run cheap tires and earn bragging rights amongst eachother? Does it take away from your accomplishment in some way? What if they put together an agreement to run worn out Take-Off RA1's or SM Hoosiers? Does that make it any better or worse?

[Flyinglizard]

Dick,
SCCA club racing is one of the few clubs ,Worldwide, that allows tires that have a lifespan of a few hours. Most clubs run on 180 TW tires. Many are a spec tire. Racing is very good and the 6 tires can last all year on 2000# cars, with very little , if any lap time degradsion . . The lap time creep is well inside the driver induced data noise. Unlike the Hoes.
Chumpcar tire rules have proven that the racing can be very close, the tires last and no body has died from going slower. There is plenty of data out there. Lookat the Euro clubs, VW Cup, PR club racing like EA86 tossed out,The DR clubs. etc.

The SCCA club racer that races 2X per year; The second time out on the HOHO tires , they are hard,dried out, not consistent. Hoes are a deterrent from racing for the "seldom racer".

Of course the cost of racing comes down as the cost per hr comes down. Stop arguing that please. It's non sense.
Of course the fast big dollar guys will still use all available tools to stay in front. It's racing. It's part of racing.

I moved out of IT to Prod,mostly due to the tires. If my Son is going to race, I want a venue that I can almost afford. Buying Hoes every race weekend is not an option for us.
Sometimes I think that Iam the only one, but more often than not, I am just the vocal one. My 4/100$, take offs last until the cords and have slowed down before I get them. yes, fresh Hoes are faster..

[Xian]

First off, to be clear, I'm totally fine with guys running street tires in IT and having inter race contests and trophies. No issue with that.

I just have a hard time believing that this is the end game. If it isn't, and we are really trying to change the culture and move IT to street tires and ban R comps, then I see a crap ton of issues we'd have to deal with to maintain the competitive balance we have now.

That's the harm/issue I see, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Oh, and FancyPants (jjanos)? Yeah, he'd argue with a supermodel giving him a blowjob.

I don't know that anyone ever knows where the end game of anything is.

As I understand it, the goal right now is just some folks looking to save a couple bucks and race the same people they always do. Basically an IT7 approach amongst some friends in ITB. Will the masses move to street tires over the next couple years and then begin shouting for "equality" against the R-comps? Dunno. I guess it's possible but no different than folks could start asking for remote shocks (again).

I agree that a move away from R-comps would possibly (likely?) upset the applecart with regard to class balance. Because of the limited sizes the street tires come it, it could result in some competitive cars becoming back markers due to lack of tire availability. i.e. the Mustang would be stuck on 225/45's where they're running 245/50's. Additionally, a move to street tires would "force" anyone with a 10/10th's build to make not just spring/shock/bar changes to the car but also FD ratio changes which could be Texa$.

And all this may be moot anyway... the new R7/A7 may be the tire equivalent of free super-model mouth hugs for life.

The new Hoosier R7 uses a radical new nano-particle radial cap that will absorb and redistribute tire pickup while in storage. Care must be given to shave the new R7 after extensive track use due to the increased rubber and rolling diameter.

I hear that Hoosier will also be awarding 2 contingency tires all the way down to 15th place and paying cash to the Top-10 Finishers.

[Greg Amy]

I agree that a move away from R-comps would possibly (likely?) upset the applecart with regard to class balance.

If one were to assume that, and given the genesis of the category was in the days of Yokohama A001R and Pirelli P7, then it logically follows that the applecart is already upset and that such a move as this would rectify it...

- GA

[Xian]

After looking at some of the historical images of the upset applecart, it's come to my attention that it appears to be on street tires.

[Flyinglizard]

Technology has less value at lower G forces. Some of the ITBcars were designed for .7 G loads. IE. BMW 2002 . The chassis is not happy with 1.25 lateral loading.
Less total grip would allow the older cars to run better with respect to the new cars with real suspensions. And brakes.
It would snug the class up a lot. IMHO.

[Xian]

Technology has less value at lower G forces. Some of the ITBcars were designed for .7 G loads. IE. BMW 2002 . The chassis is not happy with 1.25 lateral loading.
Less total grip would allow the older cars to run better with respect to the new cars with real suspensions. And brakes.
It would snug the class up a lot. IMHO.

Devil's Advocate:

Less fancy suspension will do a less optimal job of keeping the street tires in their "happy place". R-comps are better at covering a multitude of setup and suspension design sins as well as better tolerating being stuffed onto a narrow wheel.

This is without even delving into the "What happens when the car on 13's suddenly has to run 15's with the corresponding ride height and FD changes".

[JeffYoung]

Cage should fix most of that twisty loading stuff. Most of it.

Another idea Ron, Jeff and I were kicking around yesterday was this. SM gets a great deal on SM6 tires. They do so by negotiation.

What if IT did sometihng similar for the 4-5 most popular sizes? 245/50/15, 225/45/15, 205/50/15, 225/45/13? Last check the SM6 was about $50 per tire less than the equivalent non SM6 tire.

[Xian]

Cage should fix most of that twisty loading stuff. Most of it.

Another idea Ron, Jeff and I were kicking around yesterday was this. SM gets a great deal on SM6 tires. They do so by negotiation.

What if IT did sometihng similar for the 4-5 most popular sizes? 245/50/15, 225/45/15, 205/50/15, 225/45/13? Last check the SM6 was about $50 per tire less than the equivalent non SM6 tire.

It can't hurt to ask but:

The SM price deal is (I assume) what it took to get them in the door vs the Toyo.
It's a single size.
SM fields are often larger than all of IT combined.
SM drivers have more of a proclivity to toss low-use tires and buy more.

This is a big POOMA but I'd wager that SM buys substantially more tires than all of IT combined... and with it all being one size, the juice is worth the squeeze for Hoosier. Can't say that they'd have the same appetite to offer the same for IT...

PS
I just had a thought: it's likely that all the folks buying R6's are helping to fund the price cut for the SM6. Just like the back marker guys paying for R6's while the front runners get them "free" in contingency. All that $$'s gotta come from somewhere, right?

[JeffYoung]

I checked last night and I think for regional racing, IT was about 85% of SM entries.

Difference is it is split across four or five key sizes.

Still, I'd think the volume is enough to be attractive to HoHo if the HoHo was made a Spec IT tire. That said, it's that last part that is spooky -- we've always allowed folks tire choice in IT and spec'ing a tire (be it street or R) is probably not smething I'd support.

[Xian]

So, IT is ~85% of Regional SM entries... then add in National SM entries, factor for a higher tire "turn-over" rate in SM, and I think we'd see that the "offer" to Hoosier wouldn't be that large of a market segment. Hey, at least it would be done at the risk of disenfranchising all the budget guys running Toyo's or Kumho's or BFG's or Hankooks or (gasp) street tires.

[dickita15]

Dick,
SCCA club racing is one of the few clubs ,Worldwide, that allows tires that have a lifespan of a few hours. Most clubs run on 180 TW tires. Many are a spec tire. Racing is very good and the 6 tires can last all year on 2000# cars, with very little , if any lap time degradsion . . The lap time creep is well inside the driver induced data noise. Unlike the Hoes.
Chumpcar tire rules have proven that the racing can be very close, the tires last and no body has died from going slower. There is plenty of data out there. Lookat the Euro clubs, VW Cup, PR club racing like EA86 tossed out,The DR clubs. etc.

The SCCA club racer that races 2X per year; The second time out on the HOHO tires , they are hard,dried out, not consistent. Hoes are a deterrent from racing for the "seldom racer".

Of course the cost of racing comes down as the cost per hr comes down. Stop arguing that please. It's non sense.
Of course the fast big dollar guys will still use all available tools to stay in front. It's racing. It's part of racing.

I moved out of IT to Prod,mostly due to the tires. If my Son is going to race, I want a venue that I can almost afford. Buying Hoes every race weekend is not an option for us.
Sometimes I think that Iam the only one, but more often than not, I am just the vocal one. My 4/100$, take offs last until the cords and have slowed down before I get them. yes, fresh Hoes are faster..

Mike,
i am not sure why you are arguing with me. i agree that street tires would make it easier for guys to race with us and think it would likely be better for the club. what i am saying is that in order to get to that point all your internet insitances are not going to make it happen. people like the Blethens actually doing it will make people comfortable with that being part of out future. once there are various groups out there racing well and having fun concerns such as you are seeing with Jeff will become less prevelent and change can happen.

will the future include street tires maybe, will it be a change to IT or will it come under some other rules/class combination, who knows.

i am all about the lowering barriors to entry issue. in a couple of weeks NER will be announceing a couple of steps in that direction, small steps, but steps none the less.

[webhound]

Still, I'd think the volume is enough to be attractive to HoHo if the HoHo was made a Spec IT tire. That said, it's that last part that is spooky -- we've always allowed folks tire choice in IT and spec'ing a tire (be it street or R) is probably not smething I'd support.

Please dear god, no.