Time to write those letters - Head and Neck Restraints

[Cobrar05]

wow...wild reading. am i wrong that bmwcca, pboc, pca, nascar, indycar, grand am, scca pro racing in addition to the hated low life nasa group require the sfi head and neck restraint?

how many racing sanctioning bodies join scca in not mandating this safety equipment?

i dont understand the kicking and screaming nature of this, but you all seem very determined.

i race with nasa and have a world challenge legal race car. ive considered doing a pca event on occasion. i have a hutchens hybrid. i have a halo racetech seat. i have a right side net. i have a coolshirt too(though its not required).

i wear my hh and use my right side net when i race at scca events and this debate has no effect on me unless rejecting the requirement then increases my fees for insurance reasons.

i am curious. how many of you would quit racing over this?

[Knestis]

A large portion of the kickers and screamers are PO'd because they proactively elected to make themselves safer than the Club required, did their research, and purchased an Isaac - some of them before NASA et al. required any H&N protection, let alone SFI.

For the record, I have little sympathy for someone who at this point is simply stomping around about being required to have ANY H&N protection. It was hyperbolic but if anything, I see the logic in Mr Drago's assertion about fire protection vs. impact protection on our noggins. I'm personally, based on what I know, more concerned about the latter. But that said, I have a fire system rather than a minimum-standard hand-held extinguisher. And I wear a closed helmet with a full Nomex skirt and the visor closed so I might be skewing the curve.

K

[erlrich]

i am curious. how many of you would quit racing over this?

I wouldn't quit, at least not while there are still alternatives. I am, however, very much on the fence about continuing with SCCA after my license expires this year. I know of at least one organization (EMRA) that still does not mandate H&N restraints; I may just go play in their sandbox for a while.

Even if I do continue with SCCA, I will say this whole deal has seriously changed my attitude toward the club. I sincerely feel at this point that the folks in charge could give a shit what we the members think or want; consequently I've adopted a similar attitude about the club. I will continue to work events, but only because I work with people who I consider friends and enjoy working with, not because I feel any loyalty or obligation to the club.

[tom91ita]

i am considering taking 2012 off and then see about 2013. the $$ has to come from somewhere. note that $4 gas/diesel does not help.

i was not an early adopter like some. i came by my Isaac later but it was AFTER the BOD said they were only going to recommend and NOT require H&NR.

i agree that H&NR is more of a concern than fire. which is why i consider the single point of release in 38.1 as bogus. first let me survive the impact, then worry about if there was a fire.

i have the minimum required for the fire ext. but if i was K and had a 25 gallon enduro cell in my car, i might feel different.

one of my pet peeves is that the most crucial safety devices in the car (the roll cage) upon which all the other SFI/FIA devices are dependent (cage failure can make the belts and H&NR useless) is only certified by SCCA. and we are limited on how well we can make it or attach to our cars (at least in Showroom or IT land.....)

eventually the cage will have to be SFI or FIA compliant. there really is no other logical conclusion. if you accept one premise, you cannot avoid this. how can SCCA possibly accept this liability?

[gran racing]

What are the other major H&NR systems which are not SFI that people might have interest in using?

SFI just reviews the information and collects a check. Why couldn't SCCA have some of it's own critera? Fine, use SFI. But then include a list of other makes / models that are approved. It wouldn't be that difficult to require test results from a lab and define minimum loads.

For the Isaac limitation due to release points, we know that's crap considering other products requiring additional window nets to get out of the car.

[Cobrar05]

So, what's the grand consperacy concerning the ISAAC. All the rich NASCAR and F1 and Indycar drivers would be safer if they had an ISAAC?

I read this stuff here and my eyes glaze over. Maybe I am just sheep. Do what I am told. But Tony Stewart isn't. John Force isn't. Kyle Busch isn't. Neither is JP Montoya.
If there was an argument to be made at that level Robby Gordon would make it.

Yet, I read this forum and its like grassy knoll stuff in progress.

Is the ISAAC designer the next Preston Tucker?

[Knestis]

Search button is your friend, Rob.

It's been hashed and rehashed here for years. People largely don't get why it's a concern. I'm going to predict, by the tone and content of your last post, that you are not disposed to be any different.

I apologize for even participating in the conversation here because - DAMMIT - I really don't want to. Again.

K

[Cobrar05]

alright...there are often fresh developements. maybe the reason this whole thing doesnt bother me is that i have one of those things to comply for my other stuff.

[callard]

I'll throw some hate on HANS but for another reason. I bought my first one 10 years ago along with a carbon fiber Vudo helmet. the HANS was aroung $1000+ and was made with fiberglas. The Vudo was about $900. They weighed about equal.
When my tow vehicle burned to the ground last spring, the Vudo totally disappeared and the resin was burnt out of the HANS. The remains of the HANS now sits on a shelf in the garage weighing about 3 Ozs and continues to flake fiberglas but it maintains its original shape.
I bought a replacement Vudo and HANS with the insurance money and was pissed when I got the HANS. It's now made of molded rubber (kind of like a hockey puck) and weighs about 3 times what the helmet weighs. By eliminating the hand laid fiberglas labor and using some injection molding process they managed to cut the price - but probably not the profit. Still, it's more unwieldy and is a pain to carry around attached to the helmet. Like a fishing sinker on a paper airplane.

[924Guy]

Nice scribe, Kirk. You've done a great job putting words to the frustration so many of us feel.

Sadly, I still feel like... nobody gives a rip except a lonely few of us...

[tom91ita]

sidebar:

glance at this thread about someone losing intersest in the sport:

http://www.roadraceautox.com/showthread.php?t=34295

then note this comment:

I go back and forth. At the moment, I'm leaning towards "sick of it." That usually happens right around the time I'm facing spending big money on something for the car.

[gran racing]

i have already written three letters in the last three years and had some sidebar emails with BOD & CRB members as well as regional Comp directors.

Yeah, you certainly put quite a bit of time and thought into that letter. It was extremely well done.

[Andy Bettencourt]

OK, now that we all have got that off our chest, we NEED to send in letters to affect an ammendment. Don't not do it on principle, take a second and just send one in.

Something like:

All SFI H&N's AND all 'Isaac' branded devices with their 'X' certification.

Just do it, don't ask why. If you care about it, send a letter (or resend your original).

[dickita15]

Thank you Andy,
I doubt that it is possible to get the mandate reversed, however there may be a way to get the issac allowed. Not sure, but these is no way it will happen unless we get some letters. If you would rather sit up on your high horse than send a letter you lose the right to give me crap about it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

...and YES, we all give a crap, and we GAVE a crap years ago when this first surfaced. But that time is passed. H&N will be mandated. SFI will be a spec. The issue is different now. Can we get something else added based on performance?

WRITE IN.

[Knestis]

... If you would rather sit up on your high horse than send a letter you lose the right to give me crap about it.

Fair enough, Dick.

And if we write letters, you (the collective, y'all) lose the "right" to invoke Secret Car Club of America privileges to let the issue peter out without a transparent, legitimate up-or-down vote by the CRB, a public position, and a recommendation - one way or the other, however the body decides - to the Board...?

No perma-table. No "couldn't get it on the agenda." No kicking the can down the road and not forwarding a proposition to the Board. No individual behind-closed-doors lobbying in lieu of a vote. No "Here's a summary of the letters we got." No non-decision. No abstaining. No keeping your heads down and hoping it will go away. No, "Oooh, this is too hard." No abrogation of CRB authority and responsibility to guide club racing policy decisions. No crap.

Deal?

We know you can't guarantee any particular outcome but if we fulfill our role in the process, will the CRB do the same...?

K

EDIT - And no "Gee, we only got 19 letters. Too bad we came up one short of being forced to look at it."

[JIgou]

OK, now that we all have got that off our chest, we NEED to send in letters to affect an ammendment. Don't not do it on principle, take a second and just send one in.

Something like:

All SFI H&N's AND all 'Isaac' branded devices with their 'X' certification.

Just do it, don't ask why. If you care about it, send a letter (or resend your original).

Done.

[Eagle7]

Done.

[dickita15]

Even if I do continue with SCCA, I will say this whole deal has seriously changed my attitude toward the club. I sincerely feel at this point that the folks in charge could give a shit what we the members think or want; consequently I've adopted a similar attitude about the club. I will continue to work events, but only because I work with people who I consider friends and enjoy working with, not because I feel any loyalty or obligation to the club.

First let me be clear, I was not in favor of this requirement and I was vocal in arguing against H&Ns being mandatory, however every director who voted in favor did so because they honestly believe that was the best decision for the good of the club, you may disagree, but do not for a minute believe their votes were not in the best interest of the club.
As far as going against the membership’s desire, there was very few letters written objecting to the change, maybe 12 or 15. Hell, there have been more letters about Formula B shifters or S2 transmissions.

[Z3_GoCar]

wow...wild reading. am i wrong that bmwcca, pboc, pca, nascar, indycar, grand am, scca pro racing in addition to the hated low life nasa group require the sfi head and neck restraint?

how many racing sanctioning bodies join scca in not mandating this safety equipment?

i dont understand the kicking and screaming nature of this, but you all seem very determined.

i race with nasa and have a world challenge legal race car. ive considered doing a pca event on occasion. i have a hutchens hybrid. i have a halo racetech seat. i have a right side net. i have a coolshirt too(though its not required).

i wear my hh and use my right side net when i race at scca events and this debate has no effect on me unless rejecting the requirement then increases my fees for insurance reasons.

i am curious. how many of you would quit racing over this?

But, do you have the second left side net. I understand this is part of Continential Challenge, not neccessarily WC. As I mentioned in a previous thread BMW club has gotten Nazi like about teathers aging out, when only HANS dates teathers. And then you'd also have to go by the window/center nets aging out too.