Teach me about ITR 325's

[mlytle]

Marshall, I'm genuinely curious -- what document makes this repair legal on an IT 325i?

FYI, the Z3s have a different rear suspension design altogether, but have a very similar failure. When the bushings get worn, the rear subframe moves around a lot and can basically destroy the trunk floor. It's really ugly, much uglier than the E36 failures, when it happens. However, unlike with the 3-series, there is no reinforcement available from another BMW model. There is reinforcement available in the aftermarket ... of course, that reinforcement would be totally illegal in IT.

the 325 reinforcement is not "from another model" it is for repair of the non-m3 e36's. the m3's came from the factory with reinforcement standard..they don't need it, nor can they use it.

yep, the z3's got the suspension from the e30's. rips in a difficult place. e36's rip in a place that is easily fixable with a plate.

i gotta stop here...this is a really dead horse being kicked.

[JoshS]

the 325 reinforcement is not "from another model" it is for repair of the non-m3 e36's. the m3's came from the factory with reinforcement standard..they don't need it, nor can they use it.

I hear people saying this a lot, but I'm asking ... why does everyone believe it? Seems like it's become common knowledge with no official basis. What BMW document says that what those parts are for?

And if you do a parts search for those part numbers, they come up as M3 parts (and not any other E36).

[robits325is]

BMW starting installing these plates in 1994 with the production of the M3. The plates came standard on all M3s and also standard from the factory on the famed 1994 M Technic 325is.

[JeffYoung]

Josh's question remains a good one.

1. Where is the factory TSB authorizing the installation of these plates on an E36 325is?

2. Is there any evidence they came on an E36 325is from the factory?

If neither, then I don't see how the plates are legal.

[DBurke]

To the OP the E36 is likely one of the most fun cars that someone could possibly put together. All the homework is done, it will fit all the tire that you want and there are suspension options out there galore. You can even pick up almost everything you need, right now to have a car as fast as you need it to be to win the ARRC in the bimmerforums classifieds at nearly 50% off. Things that aren't there are front brake pads and tires.

The chassis reinforcements are these: http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html..._ID=4111225649

If I had a week I could likely find the Roundel from over 10 years ago that had a statement regarding this from BMW.

I have no dog in this hunt. I am a BMW guy but when I was ready to buy the ex KVS ITS 325 all the weight/restrictor/dyno unrest was happening so I went another direction.

If I were to consider a car for ITR I would not consider any option other than the BMWs. No need to make life that difficult to go slower.

[Andy Bettencourt]

and also standard from the factory on the famed 1994 M Technic 325is.

Which would actually be a good reason to specifically disallow this car. As it turns out, they are NOT the same as the 325's.

But in the end - who really cares? As long as the owners are 'replacing' per factory specs and not 'reinforcing' per an upgrade, it's no big deal. Each car needs to be policed on it's own merits.

[robits325is]

Which would actually be a good reason to specifically disallow this car. As it turns out, they are NOT the same as the 325's.

But in the end - who really cares? As long as the owners are 'replacing' per factory specs and not 'reinforcing' per an upgrade, it's no big deal. Each car needs to be policed on it's own merits.

Agreed, but following the same logic would the RX-7 get twin piston calipers, trick 5th gear, rear wing and power steering delete? After all, those cars are about a second a lap faster than any other car in ITS.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Agreed, but following the same logic would the RX-7 get twin piston calipers, trick 5th gear, rear wing and power steering delete?

No Rob, that logic doesn't fly at all. With the MT 325, we are talking about a CHASSIS difference from teh cars that are listed on the line.

The RX-7 had many different (both high and low production versions) that make up the ITS RX-7. The big brakes came on many versions, the rear wing on even more and the non PS cars were actually the lower end units. The 5th gear was indeed from the GTUs of which plenty were made in 1989 but just 100 in 1990.

Again, it's not about the bits and pieces that make up the perfect ITS RX-7 because they all have the same chassis. What would be more appropriate to compare would be if the Turbo models came with a reinforced XXX and ITS drivers were using that to justify.

After all, those cars are about a second a lap faster than any other car in ITS.

Maybe up hear in the NE, but not everywhere...

Like I said, we all know what is legal to do to an E36 to make it right. Repair, yes. Reinforcement, no....and it ain't any different for any other car in all of IT.

[JoshS]

I still say no one has answered my question. The deafening silence says to methat no one with these plates has any evidence to present in the event that they are protested.

Everyone has just repeated stuff they read on other forums (they came on with the option package, or BMW has stated that they were produced as a repair to this problem, or Turner says so ...) but no one has any DOCUMENTATION that proves any of it. Don't get me started on the topic of believing what the race part vendors tell you about parts legality. Turner explicitly states that metal brake caliper bushings are legal for SCCA racing. Yeah? Well, not for IT!

I'm a BMW guy and I can't find anything on this subframe mount issue. I'm not sure why Andy is willing to believe that people are "replacing per factory specs" without seeing a factory spec.

I guess I'm just a conservative rules reader. But based on what I know, I would NOT install those plates on my IT car, even as a reactive repair after a failure.

EDIT: one would expect such a document to be in the TIS, right alongside the instructions for repairing a failed shock tower on the 325i. That's a totally analogous situation. If this document isn't there, where would it be?

[Andy Bettencourt]

The RX-7 had many different (both high and low production versions) that make up the ITS RX-7. The big brakes came on many versions, the rear wing on even more and the non PS cars were actually the lower end units. The 5th gear was indeed from the GTUs of which plenty were made in 1989 but just 100 in 1990.

It has been pointed out to me offline that I may have inferred that ITS RX-7 drivers were creating a model that didn't exist by cherry-picking the best stuff from different models. What I was trying to do for Rob was to show him that the items he listed for the most part, were not low production stuff and indeed available on all RX-7's.

The model that is being created is the 89-90 GTUs. The desirable part from this model is the 5th gear ratio (.76 instead of .71). And even at that number, it is worse than most everything in ITS.