The demise of ITR at WDC

[dave parker]

Again, why was ITR grouped with big bore cars in the first place? ITR fits perfectly wherever ITS is, and if the ITR cars are not well developed and driven they'll be slower than the top ITS cars.

Was common sense thrown out the window with grouping ITR with big bore? I attend test days that have "Over 3L" and "Under 3L" classes. I sure as hell don't run my ITS Mustang in the over 3L group although it is at 3.8L. Only takes 10 seconds of speaking with the operating authority of the test day to get that cleared up and the car in the group where it belongs.

Ron
ITR was grouped with Big Bore at the request of its then drivers representative to the CRC, Marshall Lytle. I was not on the CRC at the time so I do not know what reasons were given. Any issue with that should be taken up with either him or the current ITR drivers representative.

ITR is being given a chance to run outside of the Big Bore group (with ITA and SM5) for the IT National Tour event during the Labor Day Double. It was the right thing to do for this race (and for future races IMO).
The ITR drivers are being given a golden opportunity to race at Summit Point and prove to the region leadership that there is a reason to permanently move them out of the Big Bore group. It is their choice.

However, if no ITR drivers run at Summit Point for the Labor Day Double then there is no opportunity to make the change.

I have zero to gain in this scenario other than to move a class from a group that it should not be in, to a group where it fits. However, there has to be some effort put forth by the ITR drivers to prove that they want this change to happen. No effort= No change, pretty simple.


cheers
dave parker

[Terry Hanushek]

Dave

Here is how I see this thing.
I pushed for this change. I think that for the the IT National Tour event at our Labor Day Double weekend ITR should be grouped with IT cars, not in the Big Bore group.
This move was the only hope we had of any ITR cars coming for this event.

If the ITR drivers want this to be a permanent change then I would suggest that they do two things:
1. Come and race the IT National Tour at the DC Region's Labor Day Double. Numbers talk.
2. Come to the DC Region's Open Club Racing Committee Meeting on Saturday night at the Labor Day Double ( you will be there racing and eating the FREE dinner) and tell the committee what you want for the future. Again numbers talk.

It is now in the hands of the ITR drivers. You can make it happen or not, your choice.

There is another way to look at this situation. The policy that WDCR has right now is NOT working - there have been virtually no ITR entries at Summit Point in the past couple or three years. The ITR drivers that were competing have left and no one in the region is rushing to buy / build an ITR car. You acknowledge as much in the comment I highlighted in your post.

Rather than a 'speak now or hold your peace' challenge to ITR drivers, perhaps a better approach would be a permanent move to the ITS group - provide some stability and allow the class to grow. It certainly can't be worse than the current policy.

I'm not jumping on you as I know that you have supported this move in the past. This is more of a message to the CRC to take a global look at this situation.

See ya at the races

Terry

[seckerich]

The ITR cars will run with ITS, etc at the MARRS/SARRC race at Charlotte Motor Speedway August 18/19. Come play on the high banks!!

[dave parker]

Dave



There is another way to look at this situation. The policy that WDCR has right now is NOT working - there have been virtually no ITR entries at Summit Point in the past couple or three years. The ITR drivers that were competing have left and no one in the region is rushing to buy / build an ITR car. You acknowledge as much in the comment I highlighted in your post.

Rather than a 'speak now or hold your peace' challenge to ITR drivers, perhaps a better approach would be a permanent move to the ITS group - provide some stability and allow the class to grow. It certainly can't be worse than the current policy.

I'm not jumping on you as I know that you have supported this move in the past. This is more of a message to the CRC to take a global look at this situation.

See ya at the races

Terry

Terry
I agree with you. However, there are members of our CRC whom do not share that vision of the world. To them numbers talk, and everything else is secondary.

I think having ITR in the Big Bore group is foolish. The ITR drivers do not want to be there, the Big Bore class drivers do not want them there. Hence the ITR drivers have stayed away.
The IT National Tour event at our Labor Day Double is great chance for the ITR drivers to prove that they will run at Summit Point if they are placed in the proper group.

I can tell you that several ITR drivers are currently running their cars at Summit in STU which is one class in the group that I represent on the CRC. I am glad to have them. They are fast and race clean. I would be sorry to see them leave my group for a properly race grouped ITR class, as I value their participation. They are good guys.

I am one vote of ten on the CRC. I think moving ITR out of the Big Bore group is a good idea. There are more representatives on the committee that need convincing.
I have done what I can to try to change the situation. Others with more skin in the game need to step up for the big play, you have a great chance Labor Day weekend.

I have said all can on this subject. I am out.

cheers
dave parker

[StephenB]

Dave, I know you said you are out but can you help with just one more post since you are in the "inside"

What do we (ITR drivers) need to do to "prove we belong"? Numbers don't prove anything other than the fact that we will come from a far... (which I don't think anyone will, which I will get into below). What if we mess up whatever is holding them back in first place then I am sure we will get bumped back to big bore for whatever the real reason is. So if you don't mind sharing what we need to do to "prove that we belong" I would really appreciate it.


I cannot attend for a few simple reasons, neither to do with the run groups.
1.) car is at the frame shop
2.) I don't have the money to spend on a 13hr tow.
3.) If #1 didn't matter and I had #2 I still would never make the tow without 10 or so cars entered. If I am going to spend that kind of money towing to your event then I want other cars to race, not just to come and do a track day.


My personal opinion on the situation:
I think that most of the guys running in ITR do enjoy racing for overall in the race. In fact I considered either ITA or ITR since in my region both those classes are the fastest in their respective run groups. I ran in ITB for over 11 years and was bummed when I got lapped and had zero possiblity of staying up with the ITS and ITR cars. I had the BEST races ever but wanted to be with the fast guys. I honestly didn't build an ITS car because I personally think ITR will continue to grow and ITS will slowely decline (In the northeast) For the simple fact I think people want to win overall if they have the ability to do so. Lets face it we are racers and we all want to be the fastest. I think Summitt may have low LOCAL car counts in this class probably for this reason as a possible root cause which then creates the biger issue that in reality who wants to build a 20K+ car without any other cars to race against.


So I think we have a catch 22. No local ITR cars, & no-one that wants to travel since their is no-one to race with down at that track and the class just stays stagnant without any growth. To be honest I think if Summitt had 15 cars entered in ITR in the Big bore group then hell ya I would make the trip and I think others would two, and actually care less if it was with Big Bore or not. In the end for "outsiders" like me to visit the run group may not matter as much as those in this post are making it out to be and it's just a matter of local car counts.

So long story short, go ask each person that has built a new car in the last 5 yrs running summitt and ask them why they didn't build an ITR car. this will give you your answer, like it or not If you get local racers to fill the class those of us willing and able to travel will probably start to do so. Until then I am not willing to spend the money and expense to make the trip.

Stephen

[Ron Earp]

The ITR cars will run with ITS, etc at the MARRS/SARRC race at Charlotte Motor Speedway August 18/19. Come play on the high banks!!

Glad your region runs races and race groups sans drama. Thanks.

Really, are you guys in WDC going to vote on where ITR runs? And there are folks who resist allowing ITR to run where the ITR drivers want to run? Seriously, this seems like a mickey mouse decision that should be made over a beer the night before the races. It doesn't need debate, ten votes, and then ratification by all concerned to get the job done.

[JeffYoung]

ITR/S/A/7 has worked so well for so long in the SEDiv I have always wondered why anyone did anything else. Good racing throughout the field, and no unnecessary lapping. Slow S guys get races with fast A/7s, and S and R compete for the overall win.

[gt40jim]

You've got some legitimate beefs there, Jim, but please do not complain about the "proliferation of classes" in one of SCCA's newest classes. The people who created ITR had to make a case against that very issue in order to make it happen.

K

Love the discourse here I AM against the proliferation of classes. I am a race prep shop owner and no longer a driver. 35 year SCCA member. Loved my Formula Ford racing!! Summit in the eighties and early ninetys! We Ford guys had our own field and it was badaz racing! Sigh where is my Geritol.... and glasses... If my customer wants to run in a new class like hmmm.... STFU Then I will build and support it But not like it except for the $ (Got bills to pay) Jim

[gt40jim]

If the ITR count is low in your region YOU need to get it back.
I came to run my car in the scca because they are the oldest and NON profit organization you can run with. I run in ITE with a 4 cyl turbo scirocco....yeah running big bore class with a small car is scary, but fuck is it fun. If you guys can't keep your e36 chassis'd cars up to speed...well no offense but you might have some issues...with your car..or you. Sure some of those big bore dudes park those Mustangs right in front of you, yeah it sux so drive around them. Whatever the case is while driving Jesus' own chariot and easiest car I've evr had the chance to wheel, your there to race each other, so qualify near each other and fucking race godammit. Your problem sounds more like an economics issue with the mid and south series. Here in the NEDIV were not as affected by low car counts. In fact ITR and S are coming on pretty strong here and there not even national classes. We're sorry your sandbox is small, fill it with people you want to hangout with and go have fun. I am kind of an asshole but really a nice guy.

Sorry y'all I'm a little grumpy tonight...but really come race with us in the NEDIV or try and convince some of our S and R guys to head down to you.

I have NO problem with the sanctioning body being profit or not. I want to be treated decently by whomever and SCCA is slipping relative to the new guys. P.S. Other than SCCA, I can't think of any other sanctioning body I have worked in that doesn't try to make a profit. Wait "Southern California Timing association". They run the Bonneville salt flats "Speedweeks". And they are very difficult to work with!!!!! Hmmm club again.
I'm sorry but I do take some offense at your e36 chassis comments. My two customers with ITR cars hold or have held 5 lap records over the last two years. They still cannot just "drive around" a V8 Mustang car that is being a jerk in the corners and blocking ya up and then using there 100 plus hp advantage on corner exit. A 200 hp ITR e36 is still somewhat of a momentum car at 2800 lbs. ITR/ITS e36 differences are really like 10 hp, rim diameter and a little weight. They belong together is all I'm saying.

[jumbojimbo]

Glad your region runs races and race groups sans drama. Thanks.

Really, are you guys in WDC going to vote on where ITR runs? And there are folks who resist allowing ITR to run where the ITR drivers want to run? Seriously, this seems like a mickey mouse decision that should be made over a beer the night before the races. It doesn't need debate, ten votes, and then ratification by all concerned to get the job done.

Wait, are you really saying all that matters is where ITR wants to run? You aren't concerned at all of the impacts to other classes/groups, their concerns aren't valid and only the needs of ITR should be considered? Good luck with that.

Edit: I know, I know, ITR is just telling you their reasons and from their perspective, these are valid reasons. But it sure seems like it's all take and no give.

[seckerich]

Jim we grouped ITR with big bore for a year in the southeast. Drivers said they would quit before ever running in that group again. Given that Summit is much smaller than most tracks we run, but they do not race well with GT. We listened and they run up front and usually barely catch the tail of the field. ITS cars even beat them occasionally on a handling track. Your results may vary. In the end they are a customer and deserve to be given a fair shot at fun just like the other classes, just that simple.

[evanwebb]

I would like to second all those who have advocated that this change in WDC given permanent status. It will take time for the class to grow back to where it was, it was "damaged" by the grouping in Big Bore and will need time to recover. I hope the region sends out emails to everyone notifying them of the change?

[Ron Earp]

Wait, are you really saying all that matters is where ITR wants to run? You aren't concerned at all of the impacts to other classes/groups, their concerns aren't valid and only the needs of ITR should be considered? Good luck with that.

No, what I'm really saying is it is a trivial matter and doesn't require an act of congress to change, or at least it shouldn't.

The run groupings aren't working the way it is being done now. ITR runs with ITS/ITA/IT7 in the NCR-SCCA, CCR-SCCA, FLR-SCCA, and Bucaneer region. I've raced ITS in those four regions with ITR cars in that group and it seems to work very well.

[dave parker]

Dave, I know you said you are out but can you help with just one more post since you are in the "inside"

Stephen

Stephen
I will suggest what I have already suggested. ITR drivers need to come race the Labor Day Double event when ITR is grouped with other IT classes. A showing of ITR cars at this event will help to prove the need for this change to be made permanent.
No showing of ITR cars = no need for change.

cheers
dave parker

[erlrich]

Just to add another opinion - I don't think the (permanent) change should be contingent upon whether there is a good ITR turnout for the Labor Day event or not. We KNOW the current ITR drivers aren't going to come race if the class stays with big bore. We also know that ITR car counts are low enough that they will not cause most groups to go over their limit (unless we group them with SM, which might actually be interesting to watch). Moving them into a group where they will have little to no impact on the racing, but is more attractive to the drivers, just makes good sense.

In the MARRS series ITA currently races with T3 and SM5, ITS runs with ITB & SS. I see no reason why ITR couldn't race well with either of those groups. JMHO.

[dave parker]

Wait, are you really saying all that matters is where ITR wants to run? You aren't concerned at all of the impacts to other classes/groups, their concerns aren't valid and only the needs of ITR should be considered? Good luck with that.

Edit: I know, I know, ITR is just telling you their reasons and from their perspective, these are valid reasons. But it sure seems like it's all take and no give.

Jim
This is one of the most insightful posts I have seen in this whole discussion.
There many factors to consider when race groups are put together. Safety is the primary factor, but the second factor is participation numbers. The overall effect on race groupings is very long reaching as we have seen with this issue.

Another thing to thing about is that what works for one region does not always work well for another region. I would not pretend to tell folks from another region how to run their race program.

cheers
dave parker

[StephenB]

Stephen
I will suggest what I have already suggested. ITR drivers need to come race the Labor Day Double event when ITR is grouped with other IT classes. A showing of ITR cars at this event will help to prove the need for this change to be made permanent.
No showing of ITR cars = no need for change.

cheers
dave parker

Thanks. I think the region will be happy with the results then. I do not think participation will be high if at all which would be a good basis for the region to say... I told you so.


Let me know when you all figure things out. Get 10 + cars and I will consider making the trip.
The racegroup doesnt matter to me.

Stephen

[yannisalex2000]

Can I put up some prize money?Is that allowable?Would that give you guys(ITR drivers)an incentive to come down for Labor Day weekend?I was thinking $350 Sunday and $350 Monday for the winners, providing we get a minimum of six cars not counting me.

John A.

[lateapex911]

Dave, I love ya, and I know you're speaking for the folks who run things, and you're just the messenger, but...

When the Washington PTB put ITR into big bore, it was like shooting all the ITR drivers. They either quit racing, took their car elsewhere, or moved to another class. (For the most part)

So, now, having the PTB say, "Hey you ITR folk, NOW is your chance...you want to prove you're worthy of moving into another group, show up in good numbers at this one race, and we will consider the move permanently. Otherwise you stay where you are"..

But the local ITR guys are on the floor, after being shot, LOL...unresponsive, essentially. There aint no drivers to respond!
And guys with ITR cars from up further way, like NER, such as Blethen, well, they won't make the tow without a reasonable expectation of a couple cars to run with.

Not to mention, people budget the season in advance, and schedule things like vacations and races far in advance. I know when I was racing, there's no way I'd just "jump" and add a labor day race at summitt unless it was already planned for.

I know you know all this, but let the PTB know that if they REALLY want ITR cars, they're going to have to rebuild the flock, and that takes time.

[RSTPerformance]

I don't understand why groupings are so diffict except when you have to many cars in a class. ITR should fit in 1-3 groups. If it shouldn't be in the group then it shouldn't be in the group. If it can be in the group but nobody wants it in that group alternatives should be looked at. If it can be in a group and that is where people want to race then put it in that group. Car counts should NOT be a factor and I think the region is being very arrogant with its requirement that cars show up... How many need to race 2,3,10??? Come on Dave you have to admit those sort of threats are pathetic at best. Do what the region feels is right and keep it consistent. People who don't like it locally can join the board and help to make the change. Others From a far can just continue to race locally, keep our car counts up and spend the money with the region that does care about them

Raymond