Please help me understand the Audi issue...

[StephenB]

I had a response written but hit the wrong button and I need to go to work... so some quick facts to correct some posts above.

FACT I went to the tech shed in 2004 and finished 3rd. The tech shed made the choice not to tear me down.
FACT the shine racing Audi is as fast as us in a straight line along with the honda, volvo, BMW, Golf, should I go on? The simple fact is that the Shine built Audi does not have a Good suspension in it. wether you feel it is pro built or not it's not as good.
FACT John Buffam, Frank Sprongle, Force 5 Auto and other PRO Rally teams have had a significant influence in our tuning and engine builds. Our "Heads" have been built by REAL PRO shops that build engines for PRO-Racing efforts not just SCCA regional racing.
FACT never been on a dyno and you are probably right... we are leaving a little, not a lot, on the table.
FACT Chris Albin was on the ITAC that decided on the undocumented weight of his ITB VW which went 1 second faster in the following year ARRC.
FACT Idiots in regards to Audi engines THINK yo ucan screw it up but the fact is the blocks you are referencing are the same. However just to keep those idiots happy we fixed that and you can check the numbers on the block, they are visible when the hood is open. No mysteries in that.
FACT The Honda was in ITB then moved to ITA due to on track performance, then was moved back to ITB. The move back to ITB involved Peter Keene who owned the very one that had the previous CRB members decide to move it up to ITA. No documention I'm sure

If you honestly ask me I would say the GOLF and Prelude are the two cars to have in ITB that are the current overdogs based on on track performance... both driven by CRB members.... how is it that 2 CRB members, of the what 6 or 7, drive in ITB and an ITB car F'd up the entire process?

Stephen

[gran racing]

Stephen, I didn’t create this post and ask why some people are arriving at their perception. I also didn’t say they are all accurate. However I think this is how some are coming to their conclusions. I also won't argue with you about the block - I have no freaking clue. If I had been truly that concerned with it, I'd have done my research and asked you guys nicely to let me take a look.

If you honestly ask me I would say the GOLF and Prelude are the two cars to have in ITB that are the current overdogs based on on track performance... both driven by CRB members.... how is it that 2 CRB members, of the what 6 or 7, drive in ITB and an ITB car F'd up the entire process?

So you agree with using on track performance????

To correct one of your facts, the Honda you mention above is an Accord Lxi and not a Prelude. The ONLY Preludes I’m aware of being run are mine and one other in the N.E. who hasn’t been at the track in a couple of years. No one on the CRB is racing a Prelude.

The GCR: Honda Accord Lxi 12V Coupe & HB (86-89). 2550 lbs min weight.

Again, for the record I also asked for my Prelude to be run through the process and let the chips fall where they may.

[MMiskoe]

Ray & Stephen:

Can you easily get 200# out of your car? If so I'd be very curious to see what happens if you were to do a back to back test with the current weight and the process weight.

Its possible that the reduction in weight might not be as big a gain as people think.

Plus it might put to bed some of the concerns, at least people could shrug & say "it mght be wrong, but so what"

[Xian]

Peter and Deuce Keene... one drives a Prelude and the other an Accord LXi, no? Or am I mis-remembering?

[lateapex911]

Peter and Deuce Keene... one drives a Prelude and the other an Accord LXi, no? Or am I mis-remembering?

I think both are in Accords.

[Charlie Broring]

There is another good example of Audi performance potential from some years back in the MARRS series. At one time Dick Shine built an A2 Golf for Don Barrack and at the same time did an extensive rebuild on Jim Gilly's Audi. Both were pretty much state of the art full on builds and ran together at Summit. The drivers raced head to head, tried each others cars, and a consensus of relative performance was reached. The Golf handled a bit better, but the Audi had more power with an over all edge given to the Audi. I remember that Mr Shine held the Audi in pretty high regard at that time. Unfortunately, Jim's Audi met an untimely end at Mid Ohio, but I remember it as being a very competitive car.

So, if the Audi is already at least a decent ITB car, why should it get a whopping 2-300 pound weight reduction? Is it posible that the "Process" doesn't always serve ITB well?

Charlie

[lateapex911]

So, if the Audi is already at least a decent ITB car, why should it get a whopping 2-300 pound weight reduction? Is it posible that the "Process" doesn't always serve ITB well?

Charlie

It is possible.
I suggested that instead of a flat refusal that the CRB send it back to us for a scrub down. Make us do our homework. Make us go out and get the proof that it needs the weight break. Maybe we find it. Maybe we don't. Currently, the Process puts it at over a 40% hp gain. That seems pretty high. But maybe it does. Maybe it hits 35%? Or 30%?

I'd be happy to scrub it down and either stand on the recommendation, revise the recommendation or withdraw the recommendation in line with what our evidence showed.

But, to my understanding, it's been refused, with no further action.

[Charlie Broring]

The old saying is "Horsepower sells engines. Torque wins motor races." Peak horsepower is not directly related to how well a car accelerates.

[lateapex911]

If you honestly ask me I would say the GOLF and Prelude are the two cars to have in ITB that are the current overdogs based on on track performance... both driven by CRB members.... how is it that 2 CRB members, of the what 6 or 7, drive in ITB and an ITB car F'd up the entire process?

Stephen

Albin drives A Golf. Not sure which Golf you are referring to. And no ITAC or CRB member drives a Prelude.

[IPRESS]

Albin drives A Golf. Not sure which Golf you are referring to. And no ITAC or CRB member drives a Prelude.

I tried not to post, but Jake, the pitch you threw was a 80 mph fastball with no movement.
CORRECTION: "Albin drives the F'ing wheels off a Golf."

[lateapex911]

Albin drives A Golf. Not sure which Golf you are referring to. And no ITAC or CRB member drives a Prelude.

Just rereading this. I think you are insinuating that they blocked the weight change based on personal gains. (As in you won't beat them if you are overweight)

I don't think I buy that. I think the CRB honestly looked at your car and thought, "Isn't that car pretty darn fast as it is? 200 pounds? Seems like a lot. Doesn't pass the sniff test. No"

Pursuant to that thought process is that many other cars seem to have been dropped from the agenda that were up for adjustment as well, and ALL weren't ITB cars.

I don't honestly know what's up with those cars. It could be that they just didn't get on the list, or that they got dropped or who knows. Hopefully we'll find out.

[seckerich]

Call the CRB head and find out, pretty simple. Why do we wait another 30 days to find out what they should be communicating to our adhoc?

[benspeed]

The men or women racing in IT who are in positions of authority or power over IT rules should recuse themselves from any rules changes effecting the classes in which they race.

That's just common sense in my opinion.

[gran racing]

So where does that put the ITAC Ben?

I don't think it's a bad thing to have IT people involved with where the future of the category goes. Like ITAC members do, they take themselves out of conversations dealing with cars they personally race.

[DavidM]

The old saying is "Horsepower sells engines. Torque wins motor races." Peak horsepower is not directly related to how well a car accelerates.

And that saying seems to be something of a misnomer. There was a good discussion on here about the affect of gearing on acceleration. High hp/low torque cars that rev high can still generate good torque/acceleration at the wheels via appropriate gearing. High torque cars typically don't rev that high and thus gearing has less of an effect. At least that's how I interpreted the discussion.

The men or women racing in IT who are in positions of authority or power over IT rules should recuse themselves from any rules changes effecting the classes in which they race.

That's just common sense in my opinion.

I definitely think this is what should happen, but since we don't have access to records of CRB votes we don't know. Unfortunately, I don't think this was done.

David

[lateapex911]

And that saying seems to be something of a misnomer. There was a good discussion on here about the affect of gearing on acceleration. High hp/low torque cars that rev high can still generate good torque/acceleration at the wheels via appropriate gearing. High torque cars typically don't rev that high and thus gearing has less of an effect. At least that's how I interpreted the discussion.

David

Yup, there are a lot of factors. I linked an article that showed how it all works. But, in the end, if tq was the be all end all, the Cummings diesel would be faster than an F1 car.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Yup, there are a lot of factors. I linked an article that showed how it all works. But, in the end, if tq was the be all end all, the Cummings diesel would be faster than an F1 car.

Speaking of Audi's and Diesel's... They are pretty fast!

[jjjanos]

Just rereading this. I think you are insinuating that they blocked the weight change based on personal gains. (As in you won't beat them if you are overweight)

Not saying that this happened this time, but it wouldn't be the first time that self-interest entered into what was decided by the various SCCA boards.

That was the nice thing about "the process." It was all laid out and you would know why a car got a specific weight.

[Andy Bettencourt]

That was the nice thing about "the process." It was all laid out and you would know why a car got a specific weight.

And even if you thought it was heavy or not 'the' car for the class, you (the collective you) are ok with that right? Better to be transperant and consistant than try and 'wiggle' the right number with no backup...because at the end of the day, neither are gonna be right.

[Knestis]

>> The MAJOR ISSUE I HAVE is that CRB/ITAC/BOD members all say, we do not classify cars based on "on track performance."

The ITAC has said that. The fundamental issue is that the CRB has said exactly the opposite.

K