What is a "touring car?"

[Andy Bettencourt]

well now that is the real conversation is it not. in order to be inclusive and not drive away real touring car should there be an adder for cars that are not sedans?

There is.

RWD with strut front add 3.5% to their baseline weight
RWD all other add 5.5% to their baseline weight
FWD strut -2.5% from their baseline weight

[Knestis]

There is.

RWD with strut front add 3.5% to their baseline weight
RWD all other add 5.5% to their baseline weight
FWD strut -2.5% from their baseline weight

Your contention is that the ONLY factor that matters, among the difference between this...

Honda_Civic_Si.jpg

...and this...

1991-acura-nsx-53_600x0w.jpg

...is the pair of wheels that are doing the driving...?

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

No, certainly not. I was pointing out to DP that there is some balancing going on.

The problem is that there are RWD 'sedans' and FWD 'sports cars' by almost any definition. Interior volume is a slippery slope. Amount of seats is a slippery slope. If you had to write down the parameters right now, I am sure I could find cars that don't work on both sides of the fence (meaning 'I did mean to exclude that and it's not' and 'I didn't mean to exclude that and it is')

[Greg Amy]

If you had to write down the parameters right now, I am sure I could find cars that don't work on both sides of the fence (meaning 'I did mean to exclude that and it's not' and 'I didn't mean to exclude that and it is')

So what's your recommendation? "Nothing" means the retarded kids go find someplace else to play instead of in YAMC. - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

No. I am asking for a better solution than 'ban the sports cars' in a power-to-weight class.

More weight% difference?
Wheel width allowances?

I don't know but I'm not going to do the homework here. Throw out some real suggestions and lets slice 'em and dice 'em.

There is actually more at play here than just chassis. Isn't there some concern that the K20 can make more power than intended? So you throw one of those into a Civic and it can run with a Miata so now we have to limit both. Throw one of those into an S2000 and you have a double-edged sword.

I still think the class is to young to make a drastic change. Keep tweaking.

[Greg Amy]

I don't know but I'm not going to do the homework here.

Sitting there throwing stones becomes quite tiring, quite quickly.

And again, Andy: "sports cars" will not be banned from Super Touring. Put that stone down.

There is actually more at play here than just chassis.

Irrelevant. Engines and chassis are considered separately in Super Touring, which is exactly why I've been saying - for how many years now? - that the direct useful comparisons are a Honda Integra with a K20 installed versus a Honda S2000 with the same K20 installed. Or a Mazda Protege with the MZR installed versus a Mazda Miata with the MZR installed.

Which are you going to choose, and at what weight/adjustments? The point where either is a viable choice is where we need to be. We are far from that point right now.

Apples versus apples, si?

Isn't there some concern that the K20 can make more power than intended?

Which is exactly why the CRB tossed a flat plate restrictor on that engine after the 2013 Runoffs. Pay attention, brother.

What I'm hearing from you is "don't take away our Miatas' advantages, bro!!"

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

If that is what you are hearing, then you aren't listening. The premise here, in the original post, is to take 'sports cars' away because no matter what you do, you will never make them 'equal' to touring cars.

What I am asking for are suggestions, by those who have already thrown in the proverbial towel, on what additional parity moves can be made instead of wholesale exclusion. Yes, I know you have said it won't happen, but that is the concept and the letter we are discussing.

We are far from 'that' point right now? Really? What data are we using to determine that? What examples of FWD TCs and RWD SCs are we citing with the same engine that you are basing your statement on? I haven't seen any. And if it's totally in the abstract, it sure as shit is something that should have been ironed out in the conceptual stages of the class not 3-4 years in.

If the K20 is limited already then its even more of a reason to say that that motor in a nice FWD chassis can run with a top Miata.

So to your apples to apples question. How far apart are we and what data are you using to determine we are?

[Chip42]

it's not just a ban this, ban that, add weight problem. it is that, but there's so much more.

it's a combination of development curve and emotional problem. Small, RWD sportscars, epitomized by miatae, are better than generally more compromised trunk and 4 seat touring cars. fact. but a fact that CAN be dealt with. miatas will always (or have always, since about 5 years into the existence of SM) be ahead of the curve because of the massive numbers and existing development of the car and the drivers of them, so coaching, parts, setups, etc.. are all well vetted and avaialable. that means that without fail, miatas show up quickly, and some of them show up up front.

the other fact, though harder to provide objective evidence for, is that people are sick to death of getting beaten by miatas. true or not, the perceived advantages, success rate, and "miataness" irks people who want to run competitively with similar cars to their own and FEEL, true or not, that they CANNOT compete with a miata in [insert favorite FWD/TC/larger 2 or 3 box car here]. just because SOME examples of other chassis/engines have been identified as overdogs DOESN'T change that feeling. and frankly, $ to $ and hour per hour, the development IN miatas means Joe Average CAN get a faster miata for less effort and money than he can get an equally fast [whatever]. this puts the burden on the not miata guys to A: work harder than the other guys, B: buy a miata, C: just suck it up and go for best of the rest, or D: park it, find another hobby. a lot of people don't want to or have time/resources enough for A, and B might be unnatractive or no longer financially viable leading to C and, often, D.

if you have a civic, IS300, VW, or Focus (or hell, even an S2000, 240SX, or other good sportscar) and are thinking about running in STL - you have to look at the class and start figuring out how to beat miatas and the difficulty of that is going to stop some builds before they start. it will inspire some people, too - but I bet there's a smaller number of those.

a large part of the reason we spend the money to do this is the emotional connection to the car, and that comes with a lot of baggage notions. Just as the bomber IT guys were driven out by the pro-build IT guys, the miatas run the risk of driving the touring car guys out of STL (or preventing them from coming to play in the first place) as they unbalance the class as perceived. this isn't all about how to make it work on a spreadsheet, even if that spreadsheet is based on real-world facts. the single fact to consider is the happiness of the "customer" because the happy customer comes back and comes back more often. some people don't pick a class, pick the car, and go out to win. many people want to race their favorite car, and they want to feel like they COULD win, even if they do not. they are sick of seeing miatas, sharing tracks with maiata, HEARING the miatas.

I know I'm not offering a solution, but seriously, some of you vulcans seriously miss the point. this is a place where people throw away money that would be better spent in college and retirement savings, philanthropy, whatever. as soon as the experience is "not fun" enough that someone thinks about that vs. WANTING to spend the money to come out and play, they'll stop. since everyone seems to like metaphors here: the carrot has to appear in reach, and it has to look fresh and tasty, too.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I know I'm not offering a solution, but seriously, some of you vulcans seriously miss the point. this is a place where people throw away money that would be better spent in college and retirement savings, philanthropy, whatever. as soon as the experience is "not fun" enough that someone thinks about that vs. WANTING to spend the money to come out and play, they'll stop. since everyone seems to like metaphors here: the carrot has to appear in reach, and it has to look fresh and tasty, too.

And we have talked about this too. We know perception can swing the pendulum. But I refuse to allow that swing to happen based on top level SM's beating up on low level STL cars. It's short sighted and those people who bitch about SM's in STL need a reality check. They should NOT be faster than you. Use them as a bogey for development. Once you pass them, then get another target.

If we are talking about REAL STL Miata, then I continue to ask where the data is that shows this dominance. As you said, the Miata effect (TME) can bring top drivers in top cars to the surface quickly and it can affect perception...but it shouldn't to the people in the know. Drago has a top car and it's driven extremely well. He was run with, and out-qualified by on a power & handling track, a FWD Honda with restrictions. This does not address our 'apples to apples' issue in my post above, but to say that currently the Miata's can't be beaten is silly.

Maybe the pendulum has to swing so far the other way that the numbers look stooopid good for FWD. Then you get them built, and adjust the other way for parity?

[JS154]

No. I am asking for a better solution than 'ban the sports cars' in a power-to-weight class.

.

Nobody is talking about banning sports cars in ST.

That said, it took 3 years to bring turbos into parity, and in the meantime we've lost a bunch of NA cars. Whatever changes need to be made to bring a reasonable degree of parity to the class should be made right away, or people are going to be gone. Can;t blame them, there are too many other offereings for peple to race their cars these days, SCCA isn;t the only game in town.

[Knestis]

Eh, technically I AM talking about that. It doesn't sound like an idea with much traction at this point but taking the long view - and shifting lightweighted versions of current STL sports cars to STU - i still think it's a viable solution. Problem is, it's a solution that's not only going to piss off four people, at least one of those people is pretty much in a position to prevent it from happening.

Do we wonder why classes don't prosper, even as they have expanded in number, when the wishes of so few individuals can drive an entire nationwide category...?

K