What is a "touring car?"

[Knestis]

...and I'm SHOCKED to hear from Greg that the framers of the original STL rules didn't envision the NSX being the answer. Ask Keane, who pretty much wrote around the Integra as the bogey, what the "T" meant. Maybe I'm off base but if I'm NOT, does it argue FOR my proposal as powerfully as Andy thinks the world challenge roots idea argues AGAINST it...?

k

[Andy Bettencourt]

Kirk, I'm not mixing the issues, I am just addressing all the issues people bring up. See Greg's post above as prove it's an 'issue'.

I think I have had the solution all along. FWD weight, RWD +x%, RWD with DW's +X%.

Maybe that looks like FWD +0%, RWD +3%, RWD with DW +6%.

[Greg Amy]

Andy, we're already doing that.

To clarify: currently it's FWD +0%, RWD with front struts +3.5%, RWD with DWB +5.5%.

IMO, your add'l 0.5% - basically, +50 pounds - will offer nothing significant over what we're doing now...if we're to rely solely on RWD adders to accomodate differences between econoboxes and sports/GT cars then it will need to be significantly larger, will affect *all* RWD cars based on drive layout and suspension design only, and does not address the characteristic in question. - GA

[Knestis]

There's simply a fundamental mismatch between the two basic layouts. This manifested itself as the "Miata is better than the sum of its parts" situation back in the ITAC days.

Edit - two 1.8 rear drive cars with wishbone suspensions will NOT be equal if one is a Spyder and the other is a 3-box grocery getter.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

Then you need an exclusive class Kirk. Not one class in the SCCA has a mechanism to deal with your issue other than weight and/or power adders/subtractors.

Your problem after you create it is finding enough people who want to race a 3-box grocery getter where you can spend $10K on a motor (which could actually be a problem now).

[Ed Funk]

Late to the party, but put in my nickle's worth. About 1 1/2 years ago, I decided I wanted to be a Major player and qualify to go to the Runoffs. Seriously thought about building an STL CRX, also thought about running in H Prod 1st Gen CRX...we have clean, straight rust free chassis for each of those choices. Figured it would cost nearly the same for either, planned on 25-30K. I don't expect to win the Runoffs, but I really don't want to be "that guy" 25 seconds off the pace trundling around at the back of the field. Then I looked at what was going on in STL and realized that there wasn't any FWD going to be competitive against the rotary powered Miatae. We're about $17,000 into a H Prod build, waiting on a quote from King Motorsports on the motor. Will I win? Nope! But it will be because of my skill or lack thereof, and not because of the car. STL lost us.

[Chip42]

I also think its worth noting that the type of tuner the class was expected to attract is largely not already within the scca fold, and we both didn't do a good Job as an organization to attract them, and filled the class with "wrong looking" cars (miatas) that detract from the appeal of a hot hatch class to hot hatch people.

In cfr there's a company that's very big in the import drag scene called IPG Parts. They joined scca with an ITA Integra, got an EP CIVIC si, and most recently are building an fd civic si. They also support the local crowd with parts and a racer or two with services. There's also an ex ita EG civic si with a B16 run by Richie Gonzalez in this Area. These 2 cars, the integras like tGA and PK, and a few others are, to me, the target. They are out there. Give the class time, but make it so the target cars have a chance. Not sure how to do that. Other than huge amounts of weight.