Street tires in IT? My Review

[georgethefierce]

Already done. He bought 07.

nope, someone grabbed it, I wont be in one 'til after the Daytona 24

[Dano77]

WOW Lots of speculation and silly season stuff happening here. Who's in what car and all.

As it sits right now, there will be 12 to 14 IT7 Dinosaur Super Series cars in 2014, not including special guests.

Looks as though its wait and see time. Hmmmmmmm


Hi Im Dan, and I drive a crapcan with class....

[Chip42]

I've been staying out of this discussion, but after that last assertion that "it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over", I've got to say my piece...

it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over. short term there's R&D, trying different sizes and brands and setups, shaving, all the stuff that has been said, and then longer term you have potential "fast" life, rate of development leading us BACK down the rabbit hole, etc...

yeah for those who don't want to optimize it's still a pretty big win, but we can just leave it as is and let that group run the 180s (STC!!!) and let the guys who will do the hard work of top level development stick with what they know.

I'm quoting myself now...

Tom I appreciate your point. I stand by my statements above because it's not that cheaper tires wont save SOME people money, it's that making them the rule won't stop people who spend money from spending money. multiple sets of different brands of tires for different conditions - the escalation in the 180TW class once hoosier gets involved and prices start to go up with added performance (and no honest guarantee of actual wear rates), additional development as you note... it never ends, and we've seen it before.

street tires and "good spec tires" aren't the same thing. nor are top level IT efforts ("Race programs") and classes like IT7. those guys are NEVER "done" optimizing or developing. "There's always something you can improve"

people can save money NOW by running toyos or street tires in IT. it's perfectly legal in the current rules to do so. making them the rule runs the risk of actually elevating that cost to those who are looking for savings.

my $0.02

GTF: please don't paint whatever RX7 you get pink...

[matt batson]

There is no argument from me with respect to changing IT to street tires, of course provided we make some provisions for wheel sizes in IT. I'd be happy racing on street tires, on properly sized wheels, if we're all doing it. All good here from my side.

My opposition, if you can even call it that, is to a small subset has a goal of essentially wanted to attract enough attention to get a bunch of racers to race in a "class within a class", but not enough attention to involve official SCCA channels to make an IT rule change. They want to race within an ad hoc race group in a rather futile attempt to reign in racing costs.

Why not work instead toward changing the rules and putting IT on a street tire?

*Is it because they know IT can't be changed due to the SCCA's hierarchy and "change is bad" atmosphere?

*Is it because they don't don't want to be on equal footing with the rest of the IT racers? That is to say, they don't want to run a 10/10th program so they wish to create, even if short lived, a subclass to avoid the "serious" IT guys?

*Not sure street tires are good for racing? Clearly they are, works in other classes and other parts of the world. It can work here.

I feel there are other places to race if you feel like street tires are what you want to use. But, I have no problem racing on street tires in IT, especially if it would be for the greater good of IT. Hell, I'd even be happy to help with the initiative.

IT faces many challenges - LeChump, NASA, and now itself with the advent of ST and allowances for IT cars to run in Majors/Prod classes. If we want IT to survive maybe we need to make some changes.

this post sums up my opinions about street tires...

it wont keep me from entering IT, I'll race either way...but I wouldn't mind if the rule got passed and everyone had to race on streets.

[TomL]

Chip, I understand your argument, too. IF the tire manufacturers decide to follow the same route with "street tires" that they have with "DOT tires", with ever escalating performance and costs plus decreasing life, then we will indeed be right back where we started, and have spent more money for the transition. However, with a 180 TW limit, I'm not so sure that will happen. There is only so much you can do with a tire that hard, and I really doubt that a tire manufacturer would be willing to run the risk of cheating on the TW rating. Between the possibility of a DOT fine and bad publicity, or even worse, a class action law suit, I don't think they'd take the chance. And particularly not for a market as small as IT racers. As I said, I don't see SCCA approving it for their "big" classes, i.e., those in Majors. IT, maybe. And if it were limited to IT, I doubt anyone but the IT racers themselves (and Hoosier) would take the slightest notice.

And I know how racers are. If they want to win bad enough, they will spend large amounts of money. Cost containment is difficult in racing for that reason. You can't stop them from spending money, but what you can do is make the spending of money less valuable by reducing the payoff. IF there isn't a manufacturers' tire war in street tires, there should be almost no benefit from buying tires every weekend. And when you did buy them they'd be cheaper. At that point, spending lots of money on tires isn't being competitive, it's being foolish. Yes, they'd probably spend some of it on something else, but again, the payoff per dollar wouldn't be as nearly as big as buying new Hoosiers is now. It wouldn't prevent spending, but it would reduce the incentive. That's about all you can do, but it's worth something. And it would reduce the performance differential between the big spenders and everyone else.

[forestdweller37]

The secret to avoiding the re-creation of R-comps is to have some person or group assigned to monitor the tires. If something comes out that is too far over the edge, they put it on an exclusion list. This is the approach Solo is using.

For what it's worth, I sent a letter to the ITAC last night. I requested that they poll the membership about whether they'd prefer IT to be on 180TW street tires or DOT R-comps. We'll see if anything comes of it.

[dickita15]

For what it's worth, I sent a letter to the ITAC last night. I requested that they poll the membership about whether they'd prefer IT to be on 180TW street tires or DOT R-comps. We'll see if anything comes of it.

And that is fine, but my hunch is the feedback will be overwhelmingly in favor of keeping DOTs. That is because that is what people know. Not enough people have raced on or even seen street tires on the track. That is why we need the missionarys to show they work. People do not like it when you move their cheese.

[Flyinglizard]

Great move Forest.
There are some engineering dominoes to accommodate the 180 Tires.
All of my cars run on 15x7 wheels. World wide , this is the most common race size. followed by 17x8. You can buy 15X7 for 80$. Not 15X6
If you are going to adjust the rule, make it so that the racers have the most choices , @ the least cost.
The tire OD is about 22.6 for most of the 180 tires, either 205/50/15 or 215/45/15. This is very near the Hoes rollout, maybe 22.4. No major gear change is required, if the car was on 14or 15s before.

To keep the cat in the box we should consider and adjust to the modern tire market and past oversights. ;
The wheel size would /should be changed at the same time to at 7in wide for ITB and ITC. with up to 15 in max OD.( there are no easy US available 13, and only a couple of 14 in 180 tires.)
Max section width for each class to discourage the cantilever tires.
It makes the most sense to spec the wheel and tire size at this point.
Even with new tires and wheels the total cost is less than 1 set of Hoes. M&b from T rack.

A good start would be to test with ITB and ITC, IMHO These are the cheaper to run classes with small numbers. The faster classes are ready to spend the bigger cash per race , and the tires are a smaller portion of the pie overall.

[gran racing]

Dick is spot on with how this would need to proceed. More people running them and talking about street tires for racing needs to happen. As he suggests, I'm one of those who don't fully know what to make of it as I haven't driven on track hard using street tires in a long time. Back when I did, I ran into some chunking issues due to the tires overheating. I'm somewhat surprised that isn't happening with other people's experiences.

[Flyinglizard]

-Dave-, -
The 180- 280 tires dont seem to chunk. All of the current "track day" tires have little or no tread on the sidewall.( avoiding chunking)
The Kumho XS, BFG Rival, Dunlop Star1and2, Falken 615(idont like ) all have been run for many laps/hrs, without chunking.
I still have 8 Dunlop 300TW,DZ101 that we ran for the first chump races. Iuse them on the rear of the VW chumpers now and they are very consistant without chunking.

Heavy cars wearshit out, including tires. But the big Mustangs and Camaros are running these tires and getting all day out of them also. Sizes are 245-265.
Keeping the outer edge 15* cool helps and goes faster/ Not just for the 180 tires.
If you ran some 300- 400 TW tires that have lots of "void" you will pull the tread blocks off, when over driven.
The oval track /stockcar guys shave the 400 tires to reduce the heat and leverage of the pavement to rubber, avoiding the chunking. We wont need to with the 180 tires tho.
The 180 tires wont chunk if large enough, 205 on 2200# car, IE; Miata or VW or lighter.

[ShelbyRacer]

I don't mind if you move my cheese, but I prefer it not be cut down into such a tiny piece of what it was, that I can't even taste it anymore. That, however, is another topic for Dick and I to discuss later.

(agreeing with Dick on this one) I think you're putting the cart before the horse in this specific case by sending a letter now Forest (but I'm not discouraging letter-sending!). Until there are several people doing this visibly, asking for member input at this time might cause a knee-jerk negative reaction, whereas waiting until it's been shown to work might get more people speaking in favor...

[Flyinglizard]

FWIW, if anyone wants to run my Golf HP car on the 180 tires, let me know.
I use this car for Chin Events, Solo stuff, chump racing etc.

Any day @ Chin/ Sebring, we can work it out. "Full" data if you want.
Mike and I use Harry's lap timer. 3-4 laps/ swap cars. The Golf goes about 2:50 on 180s, 2:45 on Take off slicks, and 2:43ish on Hoes.

Matt , please open your eyes wider. The tires work in many venues already(as already pointed out ,Worldwide) . There may be a reason that IT cars are being sold to race Chumpemons,and SCCA racers are leaving also.
We need to stop the bleeding of our racers to less costly venues.

[Greg Amy]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse in this specific case by sending a letter now...

Concur. Even worse, it may damage long-term possibilities by poisoning the well for future consideration. Develop a revulsion to the idea now via guerrilla tactics and it'll take a lot of work later to resolve it. - GA

[forestdweller37]

Concur. Even worse, it may damage long-term possibilities by poisoning the well for future consideration. Develop a revulsion to the idea now via guerrilla tactics and it'll take a lot of work later to resolve it. - GA

It is not my intent to sabotage a potential change for the better or make people feel as though it's something being forced upon them against their preferences. That was my intent in suggesting that the question be asked vs. tires changed. Perhaps I should retract my letter? (Of course I forgot to write down the tracking number...<insert forehead slapping smiley here>)

[ShelbyRacer]

I can't tell you the letter number, as it's not yet posted to our agenda. If you simply write in and ask to retract the earlier on, we'll get it.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that, Greg.

[Greg Amy]

It is not my intent to sabotage a potential change for the better or make people feel as though it's something being forced upon them against their preferences.

I understand. But what we're talking about here in this little corner of the Internet is really a wholesale revolution of the culture of the org. I suggest patience is key.

Move forward, demonstrate its potential, and preach its gospel. Eventually folks will see and understand. - GA

[ShelbyRacer]

Matt , please open your eyes wider. The tires work in many venues already(as already pointed out ,Worldwide) . There may be a reason that IT cars are being sold to race Chumpemons,and SCCA racers are leaving also.
We need to stop the bleeding of our racers to less costly venues.

I can assure you that my eyes are open wide.

Hell, I get paid good money to shave tires, so this street tire thing is more than likely going to add to my paycheck. There may be some who question the need, but I can assure you, if there is a *perceived* advantage, people will be all over it. That said, if it is found to truly offer no advantageg, I'll be the first to say it, because I prefer not to make money off of racers for no good reason.

I'd also say though that there are much larger reasons that we are "bleeding racers" and that tire choice is a very small part of it.

Moreso than anything Mike- I'm not against this. I'm simply saying that there are MANY SCCA racers who, until it's shown to them, will react in a very negative way. Look back at this thread, and this only is from a few who would even engage the discussion. when, and if, this is shown to be a viable and cheap alternate, you'll have a much better chance of garnering support. Many of the racers I know got involved because, "that looks like fun- how can I do it too?" When it doesn't seem like fun, like when things get crammed down your throat, you start asking why you do it, and it all goes from there.

[Xian]

Chip, I understand your argument, too. IF the tire manufacturers decide to follow the same route with "street tires" that they have with "DOT tires", with ever escalating performance and costs plus decreasing life, then we will indeed be right back where we started, and have spent more money for the transition. However, with a 180 TW limit, I'm not so sure that will happen. There is only so much you can do with a tire that hard, and I really doubt that a tire manufacturer would be willing to run the risk of cheating on the TW rating.

snip...

Are you familiar with the 195/50 15 Toyo R1R?

For those who aren't... it's (effectively) a cheater tire. All R1R's are rated at 140 TW. All R1R's except the 195/50 go from the "soft" rubber to a harder compound somewhere between 2/32nd's and 4/32nd's from the belts. The 195/50 is soft compound basically to the cords. Why's this matter? Because the compound is so soft that it will tear and chunk at full tread and even exhibits fast wear and graining at 4-5/32nd's. Did I mention that it can also get overheated within a handful of laps on the racetrack? It's the worst of all worlds in a street tire... you can't run it full tread or it'll chunk, so you shave it but it wears super quick. It also has a different carcass construction from the rest of the lineup. At this point you're asking "why would Toyo do such a thing?" (GASP!)... so they could win ST/STS class autocross championships. This tire became the defacto spec tire for the class. Cars that couldn't fit/run it were left out in the cold.

This 195/50 R1R isn't a threat to running a Street Tire roadrace class because it won't stand up to the heat/load thrown at it but the mentality that a boutique manufacturer wouldn't make a "cheater" tire for IT is short sighted. With SCCA Solo Stock classes moving to "street tires" and all the demand for LeChump/DE street tires, I think it's simply a matter of time before somebody starts making a tire that meets the letter of the rule but not the spirit. At that point, you'd better hope you have an exclusion list in place and officials who are willing to use it!

[dickita15]

It is not my intent to sabotage a potential change for the better or make people feel as though it's something being forced upon them against their preferences. That was my intent in suggesting that the question be asked vs. tires changed. Perhaps I should retract my letter? (Of course I forgot to write down the tracking number...<insert forehead slapping smiley here>)

On the other hand if they do ask now in a year or two after more people have had exposure to street tires another request could be made and the CRB could see if there is evolution in thinking. Not sure which is best.

[Jeremy Billiel]

The street tires and how well they perform is also VERY dependant on the car, suspension, etc...

Years ago when I ran shaved RA1's on the Integra to test what you guys are talking about I quickly said hell no and removed them to never go back on the car again.

Heavy FWD cars on street tires = FALE

IT7 dinosaurs (light and RWD) are fine, etc