Street tires in IT? My Review

[Flyinglizard]

If you are going to have a "gentleman's agreement" per tires, have a small trophy /pizza party just for the guys on the right tires. Dont allow the HOHOs to eat any pizza. Sounds trivial but racing among friends is the best.
Some guys just like to go fast and look good on the results page. Some guys, as they get older/wiser, like to race WTW. The actual speed is irrelevant. Slower cars give you time to flip each other off on the straights.

The actual tires; Falken gave me some tires @ 40$ per for the Crap can races way back. They were fine until they got overhot and then went greasy. They also dried out and were rocks at the next race. I dont use falken anymore. I pay for Dunlops, DZ101 and Stars, and will run the Rivals or RS3 . The RS3 are cheaper and seem to run almost as fast as the Rivals.

Spec the max width, dont let it get into a tech battle.
Maybe spec "all 4 shall be the same size".
If the intent is cost containment , contain it.

I am happy to see new racers posting here . Welcome.
Please voice your tire concerns , and maybe how you came to race with SCCA. So that we have some idea how to do it better.
Thanks, MM

[Greg Amy]

I am happy to see new racers posting here . Welcome.

That's not the atmosphere you're portraying.

The 2014 NARRC battle in ITA has been epic so far: five good drivers in five different well-prepped cars (not all Miatas!) As we head into late September the excitement is palpable for the final clash at the NARRCoffs at Lime Rock.

Everyone is parked together in the B Paddock. As we wait for first session to start the "hanger flying" and ball-busting is going strong. Suddenly, we notice a van with Ohio plates coming down the hill, pulling a well-prepped ITA Miata on an open trailer...as he pulls closer to our paddock we spot it -- Hoosier tires. Everyone gets a little uneasy...

After first qually, fears are confirmed: our top-5 warriors are all within 0.3 seconds of each other...but 1.5s in arrears to the Ohio Miata. The warriors are doing the mental math, and realizing that the difference in points between 1st and 2nd - which is larger than than between 2nd and 3rd, and so forth - will very likely have an effect on the final championship. Lots of grumbling ensues.

Three of the guys pull up their pants and walk across to Mr Ohio's paddock.

"Hey, congrats on the pole!"

"Thanks! Love this place! My first time here, surprised I'm so competitive."

"Yeee-ah, about that. See, we here in the Northeast are all running 'street tires', one with high treadwear ratings."

"Oh! Sorry, I didn't know. Did I miss a requirement in the supps? Are you protesting me?"

"No, no! You're good, it's a 'gentleman's agreement, we're just doing it within ourselves to save money. But here's the rub: we've been racing like this all year, and this is our final marquee race, and the points are really, really tight...I mean like 'you are gonna affect the championship if you win' kinda tight."

"Um, OK. So what are you saying?"

"Well, yeee-ah, we were wondering: if you're leading on the last lap, would you mind pulling off into the pits, let us all go by? That way you won't affect our championship. We'd reeeally appreciate it."

"Are you asking me to lay down on the last lap and intentionally lose, after having towed all the way over here from Ohio to compete?"

"Yeeeeah, that's it, thaaanks."

"Um. No. No, I don't think I'm going to do that."

"Uh, what?"

"I towed all the way here from Ohio, after hearing about how cool Lime Rock and the NARRCOffs was. I'm on the pole. I'm faster than you. I'm likely to win. I'm fully compliant to the regulations. I am not going to lay down and intentionally lose this race. Sorry."

"But...!"

"No. Thanks."

Our fearless warriors walk away mad, shocked that someone would not capitulate to their obvious enlightenment. "That guy's just an asshole", they assure themselves.

Well guess what? That guy wasn't the asshole, our warriors were the assholes. Our warriors are the ones that decided everyone else should play to their rules instead of the rules. And they're all butt-hurt about it.

Moral of the story: you don't want to get butt-hurt, get Topeka to change the IT regs. Or create new classes for those tires. But if you want to win in ITA, plan on buying Hoosiers.

Everybody else already knows and accepts it. That's the rules.

- GA

[mossaidis]

Nice example tGA. Balance is good. Yes, the IT rules should change to accommodate this 180+ tw tires as standard. That is, if IT is really a regional-only, entry-level, low-cost class SCCA claims it to be.

P.S. NARRC points don't get awarded if you "just showed up" in the NARRC running. hugs.

[Greg Amy]

...the IT rules should change to accommodate this 180+ tw tires as standard...

And as a member I'd actually support that*. But it's going to be a hard sell; dare I say something like "cold day in Hell"...? If something like that is to happen, it's going to have to come from within, and the way to do that is via sub-classes that, in the end, have higher participation numbers than the GCR classes. And it has to be nationwide, because it'll take only a very small handful of opponents to veto it.

Think you can do that? Then do it.

But don't f**k with the people that are following the current regs.

- GA

* Remembering back in "the old days" where we added a "discernible tread" rule because everyone was shaving the Rs down (@ ~$25/tire) to damn near the carcass..you're figuring that additional cost into your mindset of Utopia, right...?

[Ron Earp]

Nice example tGA. Balance is good. Yes, the IT rules should change to accommodate this 180+ tw tires as standard. That is, if IT is really a regional-only, entry-level, low-cost class SCCA claims it to be.
.

Then lobby to get the rules changed. Don't make some gentlemen's agreement in the paddock that circumvents the rules. It's almost like what some of you are proposing is nested layers of competition so everyone is a winner. Is that what we've become? Tier 1 - Race tires, Tier 2 - shaved/new 200TW tires, Tier 3- 200 TW tires

And, be sure you're ready for what will happen when you get the rules changed. You're still going to have the best prepped teams on the podium, and best prepped might mean new shaved and properly cycled street tires for every race.

And when you get those rules changed, are you going to consider some wheel size changes for IT? 15" 205s might be great for a 2100 lb ITB car, but they don't work so well on a 2700 lb RX7 at 185 rwhp.

[EH9racing]

The 2014 NARRC battle in ITA has been epic so far: five good drivers in five different well-prepped cars (not all Miatas!) As we head into late September the excitement is palpable for the final clash at the NARRCoffs at Lime Rock........

And they're all butt-hurt about it.

- GA

Greg,

A. Those imaginary ITA guys are competing for a Street Tire Championship and can go pound sand if they don't like that they don't get to win the NARRCoff. Sorry. But that is what they signed up for.

B. You are assuming that IT-ST will be handled like the NARRC IT7N group, however what Chip has set up down in CFR is very much different from a simple gentlemen's agreement. Cars are clearly labeled, points are awarded per grouping, IT normal vs. ITST. Also knowing Chip, he will talk/post about it alot, because Chip talks, so alot of people will know about it.

[Greg Amy]

Some guys just like to go fast and look good on the results page.

So wait a sec: you're comparing taking full advantage of the rules (with an intent to win) as a desire to "look good on the results page"?

Really...?

Just to be clear, I'm not against this whole Tire Evolution, any more than I'm against CrapCan cars racing in Improved Touring. I'm an inclusive kinda guy, whatever you want to slip your dingy into is fine with me -- as long as you're not trying to force me to accept that as "normal" or force me to do it (contrary to the regs.)

That said, this whole movement is coming across a lot like some organic food proponents setting up a protest and petition in the parking lot of a McDonald's. People will walk by, say "hey, you're right, I like that", sign the petition, and then they'll walk into the McDonald's and get a Big Mac, supersized. Then as they waddle outside in gastronomic pain the protesters will berate them for their voluntary choices.

Next time, the diners will go somewhere else.

Don't be organic food proponents. They're dicks. You are free to offer alternatives but let other people make their own choices (within the regs).

- GA

[Chip42]

Let me be VERY clear that the STC idea I'm peddling is all about making racing cheaper for the guys who AREN'T fighting for a championship.

I have NO desire to change IT rules to a new, higher TW number. I ENCOURAGE those of you out there who are less competitive and happy with your level of effort (i.e. you aren't winning and you are ok with that) to try the 180+ tires because A: they are cheaper, and B: they last longer, making them cheaper still, and C: they are just as much fun. because FUN is why the guy I'm talking to is doing this.

I'm not approaching ISC, Flatout, The Keane Bro.s, Dave Boles, or other championship contenders of any region about this. because they have the skills, the car, the wallets, and the drive to win. to them I say "go get 'em". to guys like me who simply aren't there yet, or have past that point in our hobby and are just out there having fun and not getting in the way, I say "here's a sticker, lets run STC!" and so far, they like the idea.

could someone sign up with a top level car and dominate us all? yes. but how is that different than now? I'll give you a clue: it's not. the "core" Street Tire group still wins because we're still running door to door and having fun, but on cheaper equipment, meaning we can do it more often. all we're racing for is fun. we identify ourselves and set up a sub points system just to spice it up a little. we don't even have ashtrays to fight for, just bragging rights at the beer party.

I think you are making a mountain out of a small ant mound.

[Greg Amy]

I think you are making a mountain out of a small ant mound.

Maybe. Probably. But I've seen what can happen with initiatives like this (when not running as discrete classes), where everyone (both sides) gets all butt-hurt, and it's not what I'd like to see across the board. Let's do it your way, see how it shakes out.

Rotards, change the freakin' regs!!!! It goes right along with your philosophy, and will attract more competitors. - GA

[XelderX]

Another point to be made about reducing costs that I've heard from current competitors is that the street tires cause less wear and tear on other components on the car. Brakes and wheel bearings/hubs last much longer further reducing costs.

[tim240z]

Another point to be made about reducing costs that I've heard from current competitors is that the street tires cause less wear and tear on other components on the car. Brakes and wheel bearings/hubs last much longer further reducing costs.

Not too sure about brakes. Our brake wear was as consistant on BFG rivals as a decent set of take of HoHos... But this is a Zcar we're talking about.

Ron may be able to chime in, but we got about 4 hours out of a set of R4 Porterfeilds (Break in ,3 hour enduro and P then Q at Sebring.) There wasn't much left after that.

Now as far as hubs and bearings, I could see that as data has shown less cornering Gs on 180+ tires.

[Flyinglizard]

Very true. The entire car will love the lower grip tires.


Most of the worlds' amateur racing is done on 180 or higher TW tires. The USA has unique tires and even the HoHo are cheap in the bigger picture. Years of selling my book allover the world has enlightened me as to the rest of the world's racing cost. VW Cup EURO, DR , all Japan etc , Most are very hard tires.

GA, of course, as long as HoHo are legal, some racers will choose speed over $racing. it is expected.

For sure mountain from ant bite.

I am all for changing the rule. makes a lot of sense.

[georgethefierce]

As someone that will be new to racing with the SCCA this coming season the NER 7 guys have lowered the barrier to entry with their sub-sub class to the point where I can justify turning both ways, I like it and especially for a class that isn't very popular on the whole it makes perfect sense to get these cars out of the barns and allow people of limited budget like me to give it a shot on cheap tires.

I also get that people can afford to run at the pointy end and should be allowed to do everything within the rules to get there, I see no reason to limit all of IT to a street tire, there are some great battles regionally up front and I appreciate what those guys do to be that quick (running fresh rubber being one of those things).

IMHO something like the street tire initiative can work (at least in the short term) with a like minded group of guys that get "it", it's too bad that people get "shunned" but what is the % of shunned to new/old blood that couldn't be out there if they couldn't run on the cheap? just a nOObs $.02

[GTIspirit]

Very true. The entire car will love the lower grip tires.


Most of the worlds' amateur racing is done on 180 or higher TW tires. The USA has unique tires and even the HoHo are cheap in the bigger picture. Years of selling my book allover the world has enlightened me as to the rest of the world's racing cost. VW Cup EURO, DR , all Japan etc , Most are very hard tires.

GA, of course, as long as HoHo are legal, some racers will choose speed over . it is expected.

For sure mountain from ant bite.

I am all for changing the rule. makes a lot of sense.

I'm somehow missing something here. Why is a rule change necessary?

If you want to run street tires in IT, just do it! Or? There's nothing that prevents it now, right?

And if someone wants to buy wins by prying their wallet open for the purple crack, let them. Let them have that satisfaction, that with their R-comps they beat someone on street tires.

And if street tires were mandated in the rules, what's to prevent someone from buying a freshly set of heat cycled and shaved tires for every race? Just to gain that little bit of perceived advantage to try and buy a win. And if the competition is really that close that every minuscule advantage matters, where's the satisfaction in winning by outspending someone?

Is it really that important to be on the top of the podium, or are you racing for fun? And if you're just racing for fun, because you have a real day job, is the racing any less fun if you use street tires instead of R-comps?

Personally, I'm all for a standardized sticker to proclaim you're running street tires, to shun those people on the purple crack.

[gran racing]

Suddenly, we notice a van with Ohio plates coming down the hill, pulling a well-prepped ITA Miata on an open trailer...as he pulls closer to our paddock we spot it -- Hoosier tires.

For those that might think this won't happen, it most certainly does. Twice at Summit Point I've had a talkin' to. Once just in general since I qualified well and the other guys were in the middle of a championship, another cause I had two sets of just heat cycled ho-hos. Some did not like that. It was a long tow for me, a competitive class, and I wanted to do my best. Eventually it will happen. Even if on street tires, those drivers are racing, right? Otherwise we'd be doing HPDEs.
The other challenge up in the N.E. is how many regions there are in such close proximity. If I go to the street tires, go to the Glen, many entrants are not a part of my region will be there. No chance of winning. Right now, I want a shot of winning or to at least do the best I can to have the greatest chance of winning.
Lets not forget the DOT tire rule so we stay away from those expensive slick tires. Eventually it catches up.

You're still going to have the best prepped teams on the podium, and best prepped might mean new shaved and properly cycled street tires for every race.

It doesn't sound like Chip and some others are trying to move up in the ranks, but get the drivers to run less expensive tires. You are correct, the drivers will continue find ways to enhance the tires they have available to them.

Another point to be made about reducing costs that I've heard from current competitors is that the street tires cause less wear and tear on other components on the car.

That is absolutely true. When I was going much slower...what wear items? As I progressed and begain using sticker tires, so did the wear items become much more evident.

[StephenB]

I like Greg's name...

"Street Tire Revolution"


Stephen

[StephenB]

As someone that DID and HAS raced on street tires with other people on Rcomps it is really hard not to get the "what if" attitude. Endurance racing is one thing but unless you get a large enough group of street tire people to run with its tough in a Sprint Race when you know you could be so much faster.

I like to race but I think I like to win just as much, not just race with the person next to me, that may be the reason I have a hard time not thinking "what if". I love the cost savings but when the weekend cost is so much to begin with it makes it even harder not to spend the extra amount to stay up.

Stephen

[RSTPerformance]

As many of you know Dunlop has supported my efforts this year, I am proud to have worked with the company to prove street tires are a great option to affordably get you on track having fun! I am looking forward to some more events next year... With that disclosure out of the way it is hard to be unbiased but I truly think that SCCA racing needs to make it easier (cheaper) for a new racer looking to race at an amateur level, even in sprint racing. Having incentives for people to race and potentially win on a more affordable tire should be a priority IMO as it is the single most expensive part of most people's race weekend/budget. NASA and other organizations encourage this with rules that allow people running streat tires to get a weight break (or "r" tires give you a penalty depending if you are a half full/half empty person)... I think it is a long way off before SCCA could ever be open to something like this but I wish it wasn't. Hopefully in endurance racing (Devil In the Dark?) we may see some effort to help encourage new teams with smaller budgets to compete.

Raymond "Plug: Dunlop Direzza ZII, best track day tire ever!" Blethen

PS: YES I do recognize that some cars already can't or have a hard time meeting min weight... Thats another issue on its it's own.

[downingracing]

As a 15+ year racer/IT driver, this is my .02¢:

I started racing with an older Showroom Stock car. Lucky to be at the back of mid pack on a great weekend (for me) with used tires. Once I was driving the car close to limits, I started the upgrades. Over the years I built the car, added new tires to the mix and became a better racer. I built it to the level I wanted and am as competitive as I want to be. I'm faster than some, but not as fast as others. My tire budget is 6 tires a year (Hankooks for less than $1k a season) and they are a great race tire. (That $1k is no where near my biggest expense for a race season.) I could buy new tires every weekend (or every session) if I wanted, but the 6 usually get me 16-18 sessions each (4-5 weekend a year).

I'm on a Chump team and we have run one event with tw200 tires that were great for what they were. We have run over 16 hours on the tires and they still look new. They are great for Chump racing, but I have no interest in using them on my club racing car. Three wide in turn one at Mid-Ohio on the Hankooks is awesome! Three wide in turn one at Mid-Ohio on the tw200 tires isn't something I'd look forward to (or even probably try). Those tw200 tires don't do what the race tires can.

I wonder how a set of these tires would do shaved down to 1-2/32 and maybe some special treatment...

[JeffYoung]

So for the Street Tire proponents here, what is the real end game?

To just run your cars for fun on Street Tires (because you will not be competitive) in existing IT classes?

Or to slowly change the culture of IT so that we change the rules to ban R compounds?

Either is fine, I just want to know where you are going as I decide what to do. I think the diea that in the long run these tires will be cheaper is dumb, honestly. Folks will do just what they have done before: tire companies will get into a war to make a stickier and ultiatemly more expensive and not as long lasting tire at the same TW rating, racers will shave and throw tires away after a few cycles, and so on.

This isn't the answer to "how to make club racing cheaper." So long as we understand that, and what the goal is, I agree the discussion is a good one.