December 2013 Fastrack

[Z3_GoCar]

No.

Because in Greg's example the "installed engine" is an OE, US-spec engine. The PARTS of that engine may be from the original sold-in-'merica car, the Honda dealer, the local Pep Boys, or from his eunuch friends on Mount Fuji - as long as they are all of the spec designated for the stock car OR within requirements where allowances are provided by the rules.

K

But, you're not installing the US-spec engine, you're installing the JDM-spec engine and calling it the same as the USDM plus allowed modifications. To do this you have to violate the stock intake manifold rule, because the JDM and USDM manifolds aren't the same. It seems pretty clear to me, you need to specifically allow the JDM motor or remove the intake manifold/throttle body number rules to make this legal.

[Chip42]

the point of the USDM only engine rule is compliance enforcement and staying away from small run homologation specials which we colonists rarely get.

a USDM/STL spec B16A is no different than the same B16A2 or A3 REGARDLESS of the stamping on the block. that's all it is, stamping.

a JDM B16B, however, is verboten unless specifically allowed by the CRB/STAC and added in the allowance table in the GCR. same would be true of some odd JDM intake as in tGA's example. the installed engine is the engine you say it is. "This is a B16A2" means so long as it matches that description in ALL relevant ways, you're good. it could say B18C5 on the block and you could STILL be compliant (to use a USDM part swap reference)

and As far as I can see - the same IS allowed in IT. foreign sourced blocks no different than a USDM one match the letter of the rule.

happy Turkey day everyone - I'll be racing this weekend, in a way underbuilt MR2 on street tires having fun and getting passed.

[Greg Amy]

Yup, what Kirk and Chip said. No regs clarification needed.

I don't see this as good rule writing.

It's not any different than the equivalent part allowance in IT, is it...?

How about "exactly the same"? I stole it from the ITCS and changed the word "Improved" to "Super"...

Edit: James, just to clarify: I'm not saying you can use the intake from a JDM engine to build an STL engine, I'm saying you can use the parts from the JDM engine to build a compliant STL engine as long as the parts are exactly the same. Axe/Handle/same axe.

Happy Turkey Day!

- GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yup, what Kirk and Chip said. No regs clarification needed.





How about "exactly the same"? I stole it from the ITCS and changed the word "Improved" to "Super"...


Happy Turkey Day!

- GA

Except you also have the specific exclusion of anything non USDM as the core principle. That's where I get hung up. I fully believe the concept is legal but the rule greys it for me.

Have a great Holiday!

[Greg Amy]

Except you also have the specific exclusion of anything non USDM as the core principle.

As does Improved Touring..."cars will be models as offered for sale in the United States." Yet it's also compliant to use JDM (and EDM) engines as parts sources for IT engines...as long as the parts are the same as USDM parts. - GA

[Z3_GoCar]

....Edit: James, just to clarify: I'm not saying you can use the intake from a JDM engine to build an STL engine, I'm saying you can use the parts from the JDM engine to build a compliant STL engine as long as the parts are exactly the same. Axe/Handle/same axe.

Happy Turkey Day!

- GA

Happy Turkey Day: Greg, Chip, Kirk, Andy, and anyone else who might be lurking this thread

the point of the USDM only engine rule is compliance enforcement and staying away from small run homologation specials which we colonists rarely get.

....
happy Turkey day everyone - I'll be racing this weekend, in a way underbuilt MR2 on street tires having fun and getting passed.

So you're inclusive of Frankenstein type motor builds, as long as the net parts are equivalent to a USDM target. When you mix and match parts, what's the motors original intake manifold and throttle body? And how do you spec and control this? Net-Net, we end up down the same garden path the Mazdaspeed turbo allowance took us.

[Knestis]

>> So you're inclusive of Frankenstein type motor builds, as long as the net parts are equivalent to a USDM target.

Eggs-actly.

"Original" is defined by what came in the car, not the lump from which any parts were sourced. There's no allowance that I can run the JDM (or whatever exotic) intake manifold and throttle body, so I can't.

If my Frankenstein looks just like Bob from the block, and is made of the same parts as him, it's still just ol' Bobby - not some monster.

K

[Chip42]

So you're inclusive of Frankenstein type motor builds, as long as the net parts are equivalent to a USDM target. When you mix and match parts, what's the motors original intake manifold and throttle body? And how do you spec and control this? Net-Net, we end up down the same garden path the Mazdaspeed turbo allowance took us.

Not frankensteins, just a part from here and a part from there that happen to be the same in every way as the part you need for the specified engine. you can't take a B16A3 head and a B18B3 intake and call it compliant to anything. they never came in that config. but to my knowledge, the B18C/B17/B16 are all the same blocks. the ASSEMBLY is stamped as whatever it was, but that doesn't make the shared parts unique.

yeah, you might have some 'splainin to do if you call your car a 1600 and there's the block from an 1800 in there, but measure the stroke and come out B16 spec and you're fine, IMHO.

the mazda turbo thing was pretty sneaky - the alternate MSP part was allowed as an alternate replacement for the MSM and not well vetted by the rulemakers when approved. but it was SPECIFICALLY approved, then rescinded. alternate parts that match OEM are allowed by the category rules and do not need a line item, nor does using them open a box labeled "Pandora, keep closed."

legality is an enforcement via measurement and material issue, not a stamping one.

happy 4th thursday in November to my Can"eh"dian friends.

[Knestis]

Too close for roasting, Goose. I'm switching to sandwiches!

K

[Z3_GoCar]

Too close for roasting, Goose. I'm switching to sandwiches!

K

From Carmina Burana:
Olium Lacus Colueram
The English translation goes something like:

Once I had dwelt on lakes, once I had been beautiful, when I was a swan. Poor wretch! Now black and well roasted!
The cook turns me back and forth; I am roasted to a turn on my pyre; now the waiter serves me. Poor wretch! Now black and well roasted! Now I lie on the dish, and I cannot fly; I see the gnashing teeth. Poor wretch! Now black and well roasted!

Better make that a Veggie sandwich, maybe with Hummis

[lateapex911]

Ummm, that was very bizarre.

Gregs right.

Jakes Motor Blocks makes engines.
He makes a B26A.
It's just like a Honda B16A that everybody runs, but, he want's to make sales, so he charges less.
Would that be legal?
Damn straight it would.
If HONDA made it, would it then suddenly become ILLEGAL?
Of course not.
And if they lableled it B16, and to keep track of production numbers and warrantees and crap, they sold that one, labeled B16, but the same in every other way, only in Japan, would it now be suddenly illegal?
Of course not.
Now, if that engine uses a sooper flowy intake but only in Japan, does that mean the intake is legal because that labeled block came with those parts?
Of course not.

It's really very simple.

[JS154]

the mazda turbo thing was pretty sneaky .

understatement of the year.

[Knestis]

But, you're not installing the US-spec engine, you're installing the JDM-spec engine and calling it the same as the USDM plus allowed modifications. To do this you have to violate the stock intake manifold rule, because the JDM and USDM manifolds aren't the same. It seems pretty clear to me, you need to specifically allow the JDM motor or remove the intake manifold/throttle body number rules to make this legal.

You're not listening.

I used a bunch of parts from all over the world, all of which are per the OE US market spec, and I ended up with a OW US market spec engine.

I. Did. Not. Use. Non-US. Spec. Parts.

Set free the assumption that an "engine" is one part. It's a lot of parts.

K