Self-policing +

[JeffYoung]

It is standard operating procedure at CMP, Charlotte, VIR and Savannah for the top 3 or 4 cars to get weighed after a race.

At Daytona this year after finishing second (by a few yards, drat), we were not weighed in impound.

[spawpoet]

I can't speak for CFR events as we haven't finished high enough to be summoned to impound at their tracks, but Fla Region scales the top cars regularly after events. I was under the impression CFR normally did as well, but I don't recall seeing it.

[lateapex911]

General thoughts:
I was involved in a infamous protest, (Written up here as "a Protest Story", I think.)

Cliff notes.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Know the car you are protesting. Know what it costs to do the things you want to do. organize them in alogical manner, and protest things along the teardown path. Like throttle body size.

FORM A GROUP. But keep it small, and try to have guys with different skills. You feel bad/guilty? Get somebody who's a non tech type but a crusader fro truth and justice to head it up and do the filing. Split a number of ways lessens the workload, and the financial risk.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO KILL THE KING, KILL THE KING. Do not injure the king, that just pisses him off and he semds his henchmen after you. In other words,do't let the thing go half assed. Don't have the Stewies warn him. Just do it, and STICK TO IT.

PLAN on your weekend being ruined. You will spend a staggering amount of time on it. (Less if your homework is done well). You will be all keyed up. Maintain an even stain, and be a man.

Plan to lose some money, even if you win. House keeps a percentage.

Every region needs a good take no holds but respectfully done and professionally handle protest now and then. (IOW, don't be vexatious, and protest somebody just to hassle them Steve Gorrian style)

Talk to your tech guy, and request IMPOUND ALL after qualifying. Yea, people say that it's dumb, because nobody knows what they are looking at, but thats BS. SOMEBODY knows what they are looking at. Just not one guy for every car. But open hoods mean the guy cheating figures ONE of the observers might know something, and that makes them nervous. Also, minor stuff like missing heater hoses give hints, and those cars deserve a closer look. Or how about cold air sourcing? Something odd about that battery.. (hollow), and so on.

Remember what Kirk says about protesting the Stewards as well. In my case grievous mistakes were made, and I should have protested the officials, but I didn't do my homework in that area.

Talking first to a guy: In SOME cases, yes, but in others, no. You have to remember your goals. If the cheat is a "doesn't know better" deal, then yea, give him a heads up. But if it's malicoius and premeditated, then I say you premeditate a protest and carry it out in cold blood.


It takes balls to protest. But it's often the RIGHT thing to do.

And don't let people talk you down, with phrases like "Why bother, it's just a plastic trophy", because thats bs. it's not about the $$, it's about the integrity.

[Flyinglizard]

There are many days at the CFR regionals where we are not weighed. Often Sun PM late in the day. Also often the scales have not been open.

More recently,this past year, the techs and the scales have been much more racer friendly.

WE all must remember that this is not pro racing. We are racing with a few guys that you should consider friends. Walk and talk among the paddock.
Sat afternoon is the good time to meet new racers and also discuss a few tech items. I have had this discussion many times . VW cam, VW gear sets etc.
Most guys are not as foreward as I am. I get that. But pushing paper should be the last defense IMHO.
My statement would be more like "I am pretty sure that your gear set is may not be legit. Could you check it before your next race? please.
The VW Mk 1 cars ; Ihave never seen the right weak cam installed in any of the cars. But they have not be raced inthe last few years. Most have simply moved on to Prod, where the light flywheels, cams etc are more legal. FWIW you can look into the VW plug hole to see the pistons' dish.

Talk first, make friends, not enemies. Please do all that we can do to keep racers. Make gentle rule discussions.
** Really some guys have no clew if the car is legal. **
The IT cars have been sold raced a long time now. Many are on the third owner, 4th log book etc. IMHO. MM

[quadzjr]

I get that we are all friends and doing this for fun. But that is no excuse to cheat.

I am not saying or threatening to tear everyone down. Manny the reason why we need to change the culture is to get everyone on the same page. Alot of people think their cams are "OK" just because racing is for fun. That makes it not fun for the rest of us. Another thing is that the car that you think might be illegal might be different than the car that I think is illegal. I am suspicious of two maybe 3 cars. One front runner, the others behind me. So who knows.. maybe people think I am illegal.

There is alot of problems with legality. Not scalling cars and people know that is just one issue. One of my competitors came to me a few years ago at Sebring and asked if I was going to pull the 200lbs of balast out of the car as I knew they were not scaling cars afterwards. I said no because I knew it would be illegal. He was planning on doing it saying "who cares?"

I have had conversations about "grey area" what is blue printing. I know some cars have blended bowls as they think it is legal to do so.

I know others have gone in great detail of how to hide porting an aluminum cylinder heads with a certain process and finishing proceedure to make look stock again.

One person even qouted that I thought was funny and sad at the time "Cheating for Safety".

One person mentioned they had cams done.. I asked him what.. he says ohh nothing.. I don't know why I said that.. then drives by in the paddock with a noticable difference in valve overlap sound.

I know one person got blank crank timing pulley and cut the keyway where they wanted based on cam timing.

This does not sound like this is "for fun". It sounds to me that alot of people are doing this to win or move up. The point is we are doing this for fun, so do not cheat. If cheating makes your car more competitive either then you can look at other ways to handle it. Ask for it to be re-classed, work on driver, or work on ways (more expensive) to make it faster legally.

What kinda scares me is that the two people that race in CFR on here both admit there is issues but warn about the consequence of it.

I know Mike no longer runs in ITB.. Come back man!

[downingracing]

If you 'know' these folks are cheating with part X, write the paper! Knowing the exact part(s) to protest make the process easy! If you are worried about being that guy, get a friend or two to go in with you. You seem very passionate about stopping cheaters (which is a good thing)! Understand the process will cost you time and money but the class/sport will be better for it in the long run.

I've only ever filed one mechanical protest. Process was easy and the stewards were a big help with what to do and who to talk to. Cam protest was going to cost me $600-ish if I lost. Well worth it to get the cheaters out. Never made it to pulling the cam - we came town agreement that moved him to last in class for the races.. (This guy cost someone the championship the previous year with this illegal car. That wasn't going to happen 2 years in a row.)

[quadzjr]

As I have only watched on teh sidelines one tear down (One that was mentioned in detail this thread). I do not know all the cheats of all teh cars. I don't know if a MK2 VW has a cheater cam like the MK1 does. I don't know if the TB off another car looks just like the factory but larger on a honda.

How do you protest a ported cylinder head if the finish was put back to factory finish? I am sure that any test you could do would result in inconclusive. So it flows better, has no casting lines.. this could just be a 1 in 100 good head.

Maybe this is bigger than I can chew. I need some help.. anybody in the CFR want to join in my cause?

Manny IM me about the illegal car youare thinking about.. it maybe the same as mine and we can talk to them.

[Knestis]

So, to the CFR situation specifically...

Get a group of like-minded folks together informally, with the mission of getting the cheating under control.

Make sure you recognize that you're talking about shifting a culture, one that's pretty entrenched and supported (explicitly or tacitly) but a lot of folks with $$ invested in their current (cheaty) positions. Commit to the challenge.

Communicate as broadly as you can - starting right now - that y'all are on a mission. It's a friendly mission but some folks' feelings might get hurt. Give 'em as much warning (this off season) as possible to get compliant or risk getting dinged.

Define a set of specific strategies to actually DING SOMEONE and put them into action. The list from this conversation is a great start:

** Get friendly tech peeps to hold "impound all" with hoods open

** Vow to collectively - and informally - point out any obvious visible illegalities that can be seen to every entrant; reinforce that, as a group, the category DOES care about whether every car is compliant

** Pick some low-hanging cheater fruit - protest visible-and-consequential items on a few cars, and protest a couple of the more grievous suspected problems that require technical help, if not invasive tear downs (e.g., pull valve covers to compare easy cam measurements [lobe height minus base circle], gearbox ratios).

We've joked about "Florida IT" for the last decade. It's part of the reason I NEVER made any effort to come there. I got a clear picture of what we'd be walking into from David Ellis-Brown's "recommendations" of what we should do to make a MkIII VW fast, back when we built Pablo I...

It would be nice to see the accepted standards change.

K