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There's a price to just getting up and building another car, let alone keeping the same chassis and moving to another class. I think that's whay there has not been this ... exodus. I personally have too much invested in the Civic and would not consider changing car/class until I feel I have gone full circle with it. In Kirk's case, he had a clear opportunity to change class given the current structure... IT is NOT going National. Should I have been in the same situation, I would have done the same. So, the out-go rate from IT may not big at this point, but over time, folks who are passionate about the build/ease/dependability of IT and wanting to compete at a true national level will be disappointed and will need to move to another class, sadly.
 
Knestis said:
Arguments based on "controlling costs" - certainly within a class - simply are NOT valid. The only thing that increases cost is the desire to be competitive, and popularity of a class increases competition. The only way to keep a lid on costs, absent a REAL claim rule, is to limit popularity. I think we've accomplished that in the past few years with IT. Sadly.
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No, you cannot control costs within a class. If someone wants spend the GDP of Swaziland on building an IT car, they can do it. BUT, costs are effectively controlled. The marginal improvement for very expensive items is well within a single standard deviation of mean performance for the car.

Go ahead and have custom-designed, $500,000 shocks for a car... from the lap times, I doubt that anyone will be able to tell the difference between the $500K shock car and someone who doesn't. (At least from the lap times.)
 
Gregg said:
Actually, I was talking specifically about Kirk. I could be wrong but I venture that his decision to go exclusively to STL was made far easier knowing that getting back on track would require a new race car.
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He'll confirm, but his move to STU was more about a new opportunity with Cameron's Jetta TDI program coupled to the destruction of Pablo more than anything else. Had either one of those not happened I suggest Kirk would still be in - or headed back to - ITB. - GA
 
Greg Amy said:
He'll confirm, but his move to STU was more about a new opportunity with Cameron's Jetta TDI program coupled to the destruction of Pablo more than anything else. Had either one of those not happened I suggest Kirk would still be in - or headed back to - ITB. - GA
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It's true that outside circumstances often are the catalyst for change.

Greg speaks the truth about his situation. But thats Greg, he steps in gold poo all the damn time, LOL. Also, he had a pretty short list of one or two cars he would race. Although he did seriously consider an ITA Miata effort, but his partner made the mistake of doing a realistic budget.
So Greg stuck with what he had and could convert fairly easily to STL, and it just so (lucky gold poo) happened that it is one of the select few cars that has a good chance of success in STL.

But make no mistake, that classes ability to go to the Runoffs is a MAJOR draw for Greg.

My car, a first gen RX-7, is at the end of it's life in terms of rebuild-able parts so it was time to say goodbye.
But were I to get back into the racing pool, I'd look very seriously at non IT categories simply because of the National status.
I love the IT ruleset. Not too much, not too little. But I'm not a fan of the limitations, and there is a lot of financial pull to run where you can defray costs. As a RWD guy, I'd think hard about LP Prod.
 
Honestly, I'm a little surprised that more folks with Civic/CRX/Integra's haven't jumped into STL builds. It's an easy motor swap to a class that "fixes" some of the inherent weak parts of the cars (brakes) and should reduce operating/consumables costs (lighter car, bigger brakes).
 
The Jetta was a great opportunity and made my final decision for me but I wasn't going to build a new car for IT once it became clear Pablo was no more. I REALLY miss that car, and the well-attended of those races - MARRS, Festival, ARRC - but we've seen the golden days of the category at this point. PERHAPS not ITR but in the slower classes, certainly.

K

EDIT - Had Pablo NOT been squashed, I'd still be there but only until it was new tub time.
 
On IT going National. I wrote this 5 years ago and I still feel the same way.

What is broken that I see this fixing? My desire to build, maintain and race a car with the ruleset and cars I think are the best fit for me - for a SCCA National Championship. Yes, I can go National racing in Prod, GT, SM, SRF, etc...but those classes don't interest me as much. I like to upgrade - but not to the tune of Prod, so IT is perfect for me.

As far as 'going National' raising the cost of being competitive in IT - that is a misguided sentiment. POPULARITY raises the cost. The more people, the more competition, the more money. If National status raises the popularity of IT (which I think is inevitable), then costs will rise for some areas.

Opinions will vary on the affects - and that is because in some areas nothing will change in terms of money and prep level. Some areas will see an influx of full-prep cars...and the affects of THAT is also debatable.

You could easliy make the arguement that if the 'heavy hitter' in some of the lesser subscribed pockets goes National, it may actually INCREASE regional competition because the perception of that door opening for the 'average racer' could be there as that HH leaves for a different group of fish to fry.

What is best for the class Nationally is a tough call IMHO.
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lateapex911 said:
But make no mistake, that classes ability to go to the Runoffs is a MAJOR draw for Greg.
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Yes, but...that was because I wanted an excuse to drive Road America.

Ironically, after 2013 that draw is no more (current rumor is the Runoffs is going to Laguna Seca for 2014). And the "Majors" program requires extensive Eastern Seaboard travel (Daytona to Watkins Glen) to contest a championship. Ergo, even if the Runoffs were at a reasonably-attainable and -attractive race track in 2014 (such as at Road Atlanta, where God has always intended them to be, even despite the 1990's destruction of His temple), I'd actually use the Regional path to qualify for the event.

Having done both Regional and National racing over the last quarter-century, I've always found the Regional events to be more competitive, more enjoyable, less stressful, and a lot more sociable. And I suggest those who feel that Improved Touring needs to go National in order to try to attain some elusive goal should look back at the quality of the grass on their own side of the fence.

GA, who's back to Regional racing in '14...
 
If you look back at some of my arguments FOR national status, you'll see that I explained that I would continue to run regionals as well - or more likely a mix of both. Part of the benefit of national status, to my way of thinking, is systemic rather than immediately personal.

For example, what would the current resale value of any given IT car in the IT.com classifieds be if it were eligible for Nationals? Higher or lower than is the case right now...? Would it be easier to sell or harder?

K
 
I understand your systemic argument, but...
Knestis said:
...what would the current resale value of any given IT car in the IT.com classifieds be if it were eligible for Nationals?
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A straw man argument, as net-net it would be no different. One can argue that IT cars could be "worth" more on resale were the class National, but the costs to prepare them to that attractive National level would be higher. So, really, no difference.

Same goes for Andy's popularity - yet circular - argument, "POPULARITY raises the cost." He's right, but a class does not become popular BECAUSE it's National; in fact, due to participation requirements, a class will not become National until it is popular.

Or until you invite in Spec Miatas to double dip... ;) ...but be careful what you ask for...."one should be loyal to the nightmare of their choice"...

- GA
 
lateapex911 said:
.... As a RWD guy, I'd think hard about LP Prod.
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Jake,

LP is actually a misnomer, it's prep levels 1 and 2. Prep level 2 is what used to be LP, but in my case it's almost exactly what I get in STU ( 12:1 compression, 0.5" valve lift, stock intake manifold/TB, but no dry sump or h-beam rods). So N/A STU and EP level 2 cars should have the same power (no suprise there).
 
Greg Amy said:
Same goes for Andy's popularity - yet circular - argument, "POPULARITY raises the cost." He's right, but a class does not become popular BECAUSE it's National; in fact, due to participation requirements, a class will not become National until it is popular.

Or until you invite in Spec Miatas to double dip... ;) ...but be careful what you ask for...."one should be loyal to the nightmare of their choice"...

- GA
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Except I'll bet you ITS, ITA and ITB have enough car counts right now to hit the top 10 in class participation. So the popularity is there, it may just get MORE popular...and signal to the PTB that the simple, scaled down nature of the ruleset is the draw.

Could be.
 
Andy Bettencourt said:
Except I'll bet you ITS, ITA and ITB have enough car counts right now to hit the top 10 in class participation.
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As we've argued ad nauseum, only because they're not National. If they were National, it's likely they'd not be as popular.

Again, IT is popular because of its consistent ruleset, and that consistency exists solely - ONLY - because it's Regional only.

Andy Bettencourt said:
Could be.
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But won't be.

I don't know WHY you guys keep circle-jerking yourselves over an argument that's been going on for FAR longer than any of you have been in racing. It's a question that's been asked - and answered - numerous times since I started racing in IT in 1985.

Let it go.

- GA
 
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No one is arguing. It came up and we are talking about it. It's what we do.

I disagree that IT couldn't enter National status with the same rules and procedures it has now. The CRB just has to admit it it's popular BECAUSE that stuff works and not dork it up.
 
I think IT could NOT go National as is, BUT, with tweaks and some mods and trimming it could.

But, yea, the people who don't want it to don't want it too, and that's that.
 
Greg Amy said:
Same goes for Andy's popularity - yet circular - argument, "POPULARITY raises the cost." He's right, but a class does not become popular BECAUSE it's National; in fact, due to participation requirements, a class will not become National until it is popular.

Or until you invite in Spec Miatas to double dip... ;) ...but be careful what you ask for...."one should be loyal to the nightmare of their choice"...

- GA
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Good thing you added your Spec Miata qualifying line!

Without SM double dippers where would STL be last year, etc?
Of course pure subtraction can't really answer the question because of the "I know this class is Runoffs bound" factor, where some builds happen ONLY if the class is Runoffs material, increasing car counts.
If you build it, they will come"

Same thing can be said for IT, of course.
 
I would not call it an exodus, but I made the decision, and I know 4 or 5 others with the same car that did the same, to move to a different class. The thing that I find surprising is that these folks are spread out across multiple regions and divisions. I would have expected to see some concentration based on the local health of IT.

The motivators are not all the same. Some think the competitive balance is better, and like that it will be actively managed. Some really do want to be able to do the runoffs. Others just see more participation in the national classes in their area, and between that and the contingencies they expect more bang for their racing buck. In my case it is a combination of all three.
 
Hi guys! Stopped back in to see what's going on.

Looks like exactly the same people talking about exactly the same things, except that a bunch of us aren't racing in IT (or some of us, at all) anymore :-)
 
Josh, good to see you.

I think I mentioned this you via email a while back but kudos to you again for helping us get past some of the issues with the CRB, and for pushing for publication of the Ops Manual. Classing cars is amazingly easy for the most part now that we hve rules, and it is very hard to go outside them.

In that regard, IT is vastly improved even over its "heyday" of 15 years ago.
 
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