ITB Sentra - WTF?

[JeffYoung]

I don't disagree with that.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think Ruck ran *A* 1:41 this year. I don't think he ran a bunch of them. Stretch ran consistent 1:43s in 2004 when he battled with Serra. That was before the repave. The repave supposedly shaved 2 secs off times, but that was several years ago.

So I am not sure what your point is here. It actually supports that a 1:43 from 'then' is a 1:41 'now'. So it would then be possible for Stretch's car without any further development, to be competitive. *A* 1:41 is still a 1:41.

You have said this several times. I have asked for those dyno sheets to be produced and have yet to see them. I have a dyno sheet for the motor Stretch raced in 2004. It made 144 whp and 15x tq (don't remember the exact #). Now, this was before open ECUs and before the intake track was open in front of the throttle body. An off-season project is to put in a Nistune ECU that can be programmed real time and fix-up the intake. I know Neal is running a custom built ECU based on a 16-bit Silvia ECU and whatever hp he is making is probably going to be real close to max. Based on TraqMate data I seem to be close to the Integras in top speed at the end of the back straight. I'm hitting 117/118 and Hoppe said he was hitting 119 and Hoppe was a better driver. We all seem to be down on the Miata, though.

That car made 150/150 with a Wolf. The big power was in the header. Seeing as how Bob's car was less than optimised ECU and intake-wise, I am confident that the numbers I quote and what can be done today are in line. For those of you who think your 'chipped' ECU's are optimised, you are nuts. Peak HP means diddly. Area under the curve is what it's all about, and when you can manipulate that every 200 or so RPM, you can create a real nice powerband.

Stretch's last race at the ARRC in the 240 was in 2004 against Serra. The brakes looked fine to me when I got the car. He took the car to a dyno in October before the ARRC. The head issue in SM was a few years later I believe.

David

You need to go do some research on the recount of that race. The way Jake described it was the way it was described then. I remember because I was following and cheering for our NER guy, Serra.

A 150/150 240SX is in NO WAY an underdog to the Teg/CRX/Miata. How fast is the Price Miata into 10?

On edit: The more I read the more I am convinced that most people have no clue when they are getting whooped by a DRIVER, not a car.

[Racerlinn]

Was just perusing ITB specs, daydreaming about racing something that might actually have a chance at a win...but I digress...

Came across the B13 Sentra in ITB, and I see it is classed at 2520 lbs. I'm thinking, wow that's heavy for ITB, it must make gobs of power. I look it up and, um, no, not really - 110 HP and 108 TQ. So just for comparison, I check out the '03 Golf, which makes 115 HP and 122 TQ - and is listed at 2350 lbs!

So now I'm thinking, WTF? Is the Sentra one of those cars that got missed in the great realignment, or is there something I don't know about it? Can someone shed some light here?

Thanks.

Earl, you ever raced a FWD car? Might want to take that in to consideration.
After 7 years, if I could throw pixie dust at mine and turn it into a 240SX or a Miata, I would....

[JeffYoung]

Ditto what Andy said on tuning with a stand alone. Each time we improved the tune on my car (Megaquirt 2, then MS3), we made the mid range fatter and I got faster.

Ditto on driver. Price hangs that Miata out like no one I've seen. Kevin get a ton out of the Integra, and Joe M. wails on the CRX.

[erlrich]

Earl, you ever raced a FWD car? Might want to take that in to consideration.
After 7 years, if I could throw pixie dust at mine and turn it into a 240SX or a Miata, I would....

Steve - no, I've never raced anything but a 240SX, so yeah, my perspective is pretty skewed. But then, I never said I wanted to race a Sentra...

On edit: The more I read the more I am convinced that most people have no clue when they are getting whooped by a DRIVER, not a car.

Andy - I can see that too, but fwiw, in my case at least, my opinion is in no way, shape, or form based on my own experience. I know my car is not 10/10ths, and I know as a driver I'm not in the same league as guys like Brian, Joe, Kevin, and you. I'm basing my opinion on what I'm seeing the best drivers, in the best cars, doing. And maybe it's just that we haven't had anyone since Bob come along with a fully prepped AND driven 240SX. But then, how do we know?

[DavidM]

So I am not sure what your point is here. It actually supports that a 1:43 from 'then' is a 1:41 'now'. So it would then be possible for Stretch's car without any further development, to be competitive. *A* 1:41 is still a 1:41.

I think a top driven/prepped 240SX today would be similar to an Integra. I'm not sure either car could beat a Miata or CRX.

That car made 150/150 with a Wolf. The big power was in the header. Seeing as how Bob's car was less than optimised ECU and intake-wise, I am confident that the numbers I quote and what can be done today are in line. For those of you who think your 'chipped' ECU's are optimised, you are nuts. Peak HP means diddly. Area under the curve is what it's all about, and when you can manipulate that every 200 or so RPM, you can create a real nice powerband.

Stretch's car made 144 whp with a JWT and it had the latest Stretch header on it (obviously). When the great re-alignment occurred the intake rules were not open and the ECU was not open. Stretch's car is always trotted out as the best prepped 240SX ever, yet it didn't make 150 whp.

You need to go do some research on the recount of that race. The way Jake described it was the way it was described then. I remember because I was following and cheering for our NER guy, Serra.

No I don't. I watched it in person. It was a good race. Stretch was racing Serra, not Ruck. His brakes were fine. He had gone to a dyno before the race to tune the motor. And his SM didn't have too much compression. Contrary to what Jake said.

A 150/150 240SX is in NO WAY an underdog to the Teg/CRX/Miata. How fast is the Price Miata into 10?

I'd love to know how fast Price was into 10. If he has data and is willing to share then that would be awesome. I haven't seen it.

On edit: The more I read the more I am convinced that most people have no clue when they are getting whooped by a DRIVER, not a car.

You sure are full of yourself.

David

[mossaidis]

I *believe* IT.com is living up to it's reputation ... once again.

[Knestis]

I *believe* IT.com is living up to it's reputation ... once again.

Is not, ya bum. Shaddup.



K

[JeffYoung]

For what its worth, 3-4 years into racing I had gotten to the point where I thought I was driving pretty well, and my car prep was pretty good.

And I was still getting beat, handily at a lot of places. I started to think that my car had no chance against top flight RX7s, 240zs or Miatas.

But each time I actually worked hard on making an improvement to the car -- there is ALWAYS something to do -- or went to a test day I generally learned something and went faster.

Hard road this racing stuff.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think a top driven/prepped 240SX today would be similar to an Integra. I'm not sure either car could beat a Miata or CRX.

So we disagree. On paper, the 240 is a player. And it HAS the handling and brakes to get the job done.

Stretch's car made 144 whp with a JWT and it had the latest Stretch header on it (obviously). When the great re-alignment occurred the intake rules were not open and the ECU was not open. Stretch's car is always trotted out as the best prepped 240SX ever, yet it didn't make 150 whp.

With those additional allowances, do you think it can't make 150/150? I have seen it. Without a programmable ECU, none of us are 'done'. Heck, I am on my 3rd intake design, 3rd exhaust design, 2nd ignition design, and countless hours on the dyno with the Haltec.

No I don't. I watched it in person. It was a good race. Stretch was racing Serra, not Ruck. His brakes were fine. He had gone to a dyno before the race to tune the motor. And his SM didn't have too much compression. Contrary to what Jake said.

We know he raced Serra. Serra finally broke through and won one. It was indeed posted that Bob was having brake issues. And his SM was DQ'd from P1 that year for non-compliance.

I'd love to know how fast Price was into 10. If he has data and is willing to share then that would be awesome. I haven't seen it.

I'd like to know how much faster he was out of 7 than everyone else (if at all) and how that translated to the straight.

You sure are full of yourself.

David

Get over it. It's the evolution of a driver who is driven to win (read Young's post of his evolution, both mentally and mechanically). We all go through it. The comment was aimed at plenty of people here who see what they want to see and don't have the basics of speed/distance relationships yet will proudly scream from the top of the mountain that a car is an overdog. "Look he pulls him 5 lengths!!!". Yet when the braking is done he is closer than he was at the start of the straight. People will say that a 240 can never keep up yet Stretch, in 2004, runs a 1.43.7 and people tell me the track is 2 seconds faster AND he had pre-ECU and intake prep on the car. Seriously?

Sometimes we all have to admit we have to continue to climb the ladder to get what we want. The last nut-job to do his version of full-prep on a 240 was almost 8 years ago. Think of the development just in the CRX in that time-frame. To think that the 240 would be frozen in time is crazy.

I fully believe that Price is faster than me for single, balls-to-the-wall laps. But I bet over the course of a race I could make it close. If I couldn't, I would have to realize I got beat and step my game up with more development, more driver hours and no complaints. The math is all there guys. It's up to us to get better within our own little worlds.

Jeff Lawton is a great example up here. He knew what he didn't know, learned it, tried hard, spent money and reviewed his progress and had a plan to keep on building...now he is one of the best we have to offer in NER and I would put him, his program and that Saturn against anything given equal track time.

[fivedimeracer]

FWIW...I think the B13 was the best glass body Nissan ever did for small bore GT !!!...The newer 200sx and SE-R not nearly as cool....but I'm a little biased An ITB one would be so cool to see up here in the Northeast...of course mine had a B210 motor, a Quickchange, but at least the tailights were OEM

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[JeffYoung]

See also (I think this was Andy's idea as well): The Myth of the 10/10ths Build.

It doesn't exist. Why? There is ALWAYS something you can do to improve the car. Now, I'm not denying that at some point the law of diminishing returns kicks in BUT you can always keep trying, changing, and doing different things to get more speed.

Intake designs, exhaust designs, shock packages, different spring rates, different bar combinations, tuning, removing allowable weight in order to ballast, wheel sizes, gearing, and so on and so on....

[Tristan Smith]

Bob had a few things going for him that made him a very successful driver in the 240sx (and in everything else he has raced).

One, he has the funds to race often, constantly upgrade and develop his equipment, and keep fresh rubber underneath his car.

He and I would chat about all the racing he was doing. Week after week he was somewhere driving something.

It's hard to beat seat time.

Especially when some years I was only getting in two race weekends for various reasons, and it showed (and frustrated the crap out of me). So I have to agree with Andy on that.

I think that my 240sx was as well prepped as his, at least intially. But he continued to develop his car, where in hindsight I got very static.

Brakes are great and the handling is really good. It's a bit heavy, but in line for the class.

But I think as the Miatas and Integras, and to some degree the CRXs (although it was always a fast car in the class) got developed more an more, the 240sxs were finding themselves farther back in the field. I would attribute that more to development stagnation with those who were driving them after Stretch left, like myself, than anything else.

Neal Harrison has pushed the development on his car and he is running up front.

He really throws his car around the track.

Stretch did too, he was one of the most aggressive drivers I saw race firsthand.

I was always too worried about scratching my nice paint jobs .

[JeffYoung]

You gotta see a T-Rex Racing prepared car to believe that last line. Nicer than my street cars.....

[Wreckerboy]

Come to the darrrrk siiiide....

K

...and buy a Miata?

[erlrich]

...and buy a Miata?

Oh, wow...and here I always thought guys bought Miatas to get in touch with their feminine side...

[Knestis]

That's the dark stockings side. A very different thing.

K

[Greg Amy]

That's the dark stockings side. A very different thing. K

[Wreckerboy]

Touche!

[AE86ITA]

Has anyone submitted this issue to the ITAC?