In the market for a new race car

[RedMisted]

I've been following along here, and I just wanted to ask, what might be the usual percentage gain in horsepower for an IT-built engine?
I'm running around with a "junkyard" motor in my car, and it seems to be doing really well. The previous motor lasted for 7 seasons before the bottom end went, and it was a stocker as well...

[gran racing]

Depends on the car but the classification process assumes around 25% gain.

[JLawton]

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here..........

Bill's got a car that needs a lot of development. It needs a new engine, it needs a suspension and it sounds like it needs some frame work. Add up those costs. All that money in a car that may not ever be competative.

Sometimes you need to cut bait.

We always say, "Buy, buy, buy, don't build!!". Even though Bill is not a newbie and knows what he's getting into, he is almost starting from scratch.

Chris's car seems like a deal. I don't think you can buy a faster car for the money. Everyone knows that Chris doesn't do things half assed. (Chris, you can send me 10% of the sale price once it's sold! ) AND, you've got a car that's ready to race tomorrow. No assembly needed.

This is a tough decision Bill. I think we've all been there at one time or another so we feel for ya! Hang in there and good luck!!

[joeg]

Bill--Did you ever put that car on a Chassis Dyno to tune it??

[RacerBill]

Bill--Did you ever put that car on a Chassis Dyno to tune it??

I had all the best intentions of doing that, but time got away from me (I swear that I had more time to do things before I retired!). But I will put away the time and money to do that as soon as I get running again.

[924Guy]

My take on that bit of debris on the plug, I still stand by it being RTV. Doesn't belong in there though...

Seems like the engine repair should pretty much be free at this point...

Which means time to focus on getting that suspension replaced. You're not going to learn anything or get any faster till you can keep all 4 close to the ground; time for springs and shocks. Regardless of what engine goes in that car; I'd probably have a tough time breaking a 1:58 down there in that car...

So if you're going to expend any time/effort on doing anything more than just getting it to run again (to sell), you really need to have a serious plan to completely overhaul the suspension. Not by halves.

[RacerBill]

I'm with you, Vaughn.

[ShelbyRacer]

Remember Bill, when you're read to move on the suspension, talk to Matt and I. We can discuss several setups, AND (if my dealer accounts are still active- and they should be) I can get you really good pricing on the pieces you need.

As far as the engine, send me some pics when you get it apart. I have a shop around here that I really trust, and if need be, I can get you in on my tab there also. Perhaps we can meet up halfway to save on shipping. I also have spares (read- cores) here if needed.

Only bad thing is that when I come to MidO again, I don't want you kicking my ass out there. My first day on that track was pretty dismal, so I have a lot of work trying to tighten up the nut behind the wheel...

On your question Bill- we have no tower brace in the front. I actually believe that if you were going to do one, you'd get more benefit from a lower than an upper. I can also tell you that the suspension will give you MUCH more bang-for-the-buck than the motor will. I went down on power at two events this season, and at both I continued to turn very respectable times. Your current suspension is a much bigger issue than that old motor.

[rsportvolvo]

Bill,

I noticed in another thread that you have "Phillips Racing Engines" in your signature. Now either you are trying to tell us the shoddy shop who built your engine inadvertently or you are foolishly supporting someone who built you a junk engine. Which one is it?

[RacerBill]

Bill,

I noticed in another thread that you have "Phillips Racing Engines" in your signature. Now either you are trying to tell us the shoddy shop who built your engine inadvertently or you are foolishly supporting someone who built you a junk engine. Which one is it?

Oversight on my part. The error has been corrected.

Hope to get the engine torn down this week.

[RedMisted]

Depends on the car but the classification process assumes around 25% gain.

Wow. I thought the expected bump might be around 15%. Better get that race motor built!

[CRallo]

Wow. I thought the expected bump might be around 15%. Better get that race motor built!

25% is the total gain that IS expected from a TYPICAL full IT engine build, but this includes all the external bolt-ons including exhaust, intake, computer/tuning, etc. A portion of this I assume you already have done...

[RedMisted]

25% is the total gain that IS expected from a TYPICAL full IT engine build, but this includes all the external bolt-ons including exhaust, intake, computer/tuning, etc. A portion of this I assume you already have done...

Well, I've done all the peripherals and given theoretical 15% driveline losses, I should top out at 203hp at the wheels. I'm already at 195 or so horsepower... Does this mean that if I have the motor itself optimized for performance I'll only gain 8 more hp?

[lateapex911]

Well, I've done all the peripherals and given theoretical 15% driveline losses, I should top out at 203hp at the wheels. I'm already at 195 or so horsepower... Does this mean that if I have the motor itself optimized for performance I'll only gain 8 more hp?

Maybe. Maybe less. Maybe more. Your car might be an overachiever. The Process is a big picture view, but each individual car has no guarantee of hitting exactly 25%..

There are a myriad of tricks and details that yield HP at the rear wheels. Some cars respond well to some of them. Some cars respond very well to a balance and blueprint, others, not so much. Sniff around and see what the experts on your engine have to say.

But, just off the top of my head, folks have done things like this to chase 'full build" power.

• Test multiple heads to find the stock examples that flow best.
• Test Multiple intakes to..." " " ".
• Buy buckets of stock pistons to find the lightest and balance to that.
• buy Buckets of XXX part, to find the lightest and ..." " " ".
• Build may headers looking for the best toque curve and Hp.
• Build extravagant cold air boxes to pull the most volume of the coldest air.
• Tweak engine oil pumps for proper pressures.
• Install crank scrapers.
• Spend days dyno tuning with the ECU to build the best fuel/timing curves.
• Tweak fuel pressures and control fuel temps.
• Reduce rotating masses wherever possible.
• Improve cooling and flow efficiency.
• Flow bench all porting mods.
• Reduce driveline rotating mass.
• Reduce internal engine drag.

And on and on....that's just off the top of my head...and a good engine builder has a far far better list. (But, he keeps his mouth shut, no doubt)

[gran racing]

25% is the total gain that IS expected from a TYPICAL full IT engine build,

Ohhh! Thanks for clarifying that. Yeah, not 25% from just the build - sorry about that. For my particular car, those extra bolt ons helped but it was the engine build portion that really brought it all together and is when I saw the gains. My engine saw about 12 hp gain, more in torque which to me is huge especially when talking at the wheels. Like Jake said, every engine will respond differently. Maybe your engine responds well to the simple improvements like a good header, exhaust, and intake?