Cash Payouts?

[jumbojimbo]

...snip...You OWE something to the people who gave you money. And they'll want to feel like they got their moneys worth, which, let's face it, is tough for the non aficionado to do at a roadrace track...snip....

Bingo. Let's admit it, most of us find our races boring if we aren't in the car, we certainly don't expect anyone else to pay to watch. But put 10 cars on a 1/4 mile oval where you can see everything and there is a 30% chance of a crash, giddyup. Road racing is a hard sell on a good day.

I grew up in a short track family, went to the races every week at Orange Show Speedway in SB CA. My dad drove a 57 chevy hobby stock in the late 60s and early 70's. He's still bitter about how much money he had to spend to even be remotely competetive. The reality is that if there is money to be made, somebody else is going to be willing to spend the money to win it.

Although on the other hand, my impression from attending only the annual school bus races is that in general the level of competition in mini-stocks is not that high and in many cases it is like taking candy from a baby if you have any skill or prep ability. so of those 10 cars on track, 3 are competetive, 5 are crash bait and 2 are filler. The problem is that even if you are one of the 3, you are still crash bait yourself.

[lateapex911]

...., my impression from attending only the annual school bus races is that in general the level of competition in mini-stocks is not that high and in many cases it is like taking candy from a baby if you have any skill or prep ability. so of those 10 cars on track, 3 are competetive, 5 are crash bait and 2 are filler. The problem is that even if you are one of the 3, you are still crash bait yourself.

a road racer friend does this for fun. It's been an uphill battle. Not unexpectedly, there have been hidden costs. or shall we say, "Costs not accounted for at the beginning, but obvious now". Then there is the 'stock" aspect. They aren't. But the rules say they are. Finding the amount of cheating that is cool is the trick. And yes, crashing and damage are regular and expected outcomes.

Each track is different, and I'm sure has different ...shall we say, "agreements". But in most cases, a green roadracer will find himself in deep water, I'd bet.

Always remember the inevitible outcome when Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear says, "how hoard could it be?"

[Russ Myers]

Famous oval track racer Richard Petty was the first racer to make 1million dollars in prize money. he accomplished this feat in 1969. When questioned about how he felt, he replied"Big deal, it cost us 3 million to do it."

Russ.

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

Yeah, I didn't really mean to split and start talking about just attracting people. I just wanted to know the logistics and the more in depth reason of why we don't do cash payouts besides just "we dont have money." This helped a lot.

Thanks guys!

Oh Dave, awesome job at Labor Day! to run with,beat Tristan, Beth, Volvos, the Plymouth Arrow (kinda funny to say they're fast) is really awesome. They're running mid-front ITA times!

Steven

[lateapex911]

They're running ITB times. Dave, Tristian, etc are all top ARRC type programs. But, the ITA boys should step it up, LOL Oh, I've always thought a top drawer program on a Fire Arrow could be a top dog....on paper, it looks like it could really get the job done, esp at Road Atlanta. If anybody ever does such a program, the ITAC wil have an issue.

[Simon T.]

Going off of just basic personal views, I think it could be done in some regions.

For my region, Atlanta, Road Atlanta is a very well known track, most places locally to the track have track posters and what not, autographed items, etc.

Sure, it's not spectator heavy, but COULD be. I still believe club racing is some of the best racing to watch, Spec Miata should be on SPEED, even the top IT races are intense to watch.

As for hired drivers and crashes, isn't that racing? Make a separate style series with cash payouts and large advertising campaigns local to the track. Have a back to back to back type event so spectators don't get bored sitting around all day.

I'm just saying theoretically it COULD work, it just seems the majority wouldn't want it to.

[rcc85]

To be spectator friendly, you would need to:

Make it a one-day event (qualifying in the morning, racing after lunch)

Only have 1 class per race group (multi-class racing is confusing to most fans)

Have at least 20 cars per race (none of this 1 & 2 cars in a class stuff)

Make the races no more than 30 minutes long (that way they won't get too boring even if it's a run away)

Run 6 race groups (3 1/2 hours or so for all of the races)

Charge $25-$30 with paddock access so people can see the cars up close (people like that!!)

Run shuttles from corner to corner or grandstand to grandstand so fans can see the whole track easily.

Now on to peace in the Middle East

Bob Clifton
#85 ITB Dodge Daytona

[rcc85]

To be spectator friendly, you would need to:

Make it a one-day event (qualifying in the morning, racing after lunch)

Only have 1 class per race group (multi-class racing is confusing to most fans)

Have at least 20 cars per race (none of this 1 & 2 cars in a class stuff)

Make the races no more than 30 minutes long (that way they won't get too boring even if it's a run away)

Run 6 race groups (3 1/2 hours or so for all of the races)

Charge $25-$30 with paddock access so people can see the cars up close (people like that!!)

Run shuttles from corner to corner or grandstand to grandstand so fans can see the whole track easily.

Now on to peace in the Middle East

Bob Clifton
#85 ITB Dodge Daytona

[gran racing]

Steven and others reading this - do NOT take this as a you can't help, ideas aren't welcomed type of message. Our club absolutely needs people like you who want to find new ways, explore ideas that have been discussed in the past (things and times change!), and there's certainly room for you to help.

Another "fear" of paying the guys who win: The faster guys will keep getting faster and faster. Some, myself included, fear that the entry level program bar will also be raised. When I first started racing the same car I'm using now in ITA, totally undeveloped, using junk spec racer Ford tires purchased for $25 each (them were the days!), I somehow still didn't finish last and felt remotely okay being out on track. Now the entry level gets raised to the point where it takes a $8K car to get out on track? Shoot. I wouldn't be here or at least my entry would have been delayed even further.

A reduction in entry fees is fantastic. Getting more people involved from racers to volunteers, great! Spread the word about our club!! Seriously, don't let others push you away. (Btw, speak with Martin Burke in the WDR about getting spectators - awesome guy.) If that doesn't work, try something else. I seriously do applaud you for your efforts and courage in posting your ideas. Keep it up. See you next Labor Day at Summit?

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

Steven and others reading this - do NOT take this as a you can't help, ideas aren't welcomed type of message. Our club absolutely needs people like you who want to find new ways, explore ideas that have been discussed in the past (things and times change!), and there's certainly room for you to help.

Another "fear" of paying the guys who win: The faster guys will keep getting faster and faster. Some, myself included, fear that the entry level program bar will also be raised. When I first started racing the same car I'm using now in ITA, totally undeveloped, using junk spec racer Ford tires purchased for $25 each (them were the days!), I somehow still didn't finish last and felt remotely okay being out on track. Now the entry level gets raised to the point where it takes a $8K car to get out on track? Shoot. I wouldn't be here or at least my entry would have been delayed even further.

A reduction in entry fees is fantastic. Getting more people involved from racers to volunteers, great! Spread the word about our club!! Seriously, don't let others push you away. (Btw, speak with Martin Burke in the WDR about getting spectators - awesome guy.) If that doesn't work, try something else. I seriously do applaud you for your efforts and courage in posting your ideas. Keep it up. See you next Labor Day at Summit?

Thanks Dave, I'll see Martin at the PDX this weekend. and I'll see what he has to say. It seems like most people in the Club are stuck in the mindset of what the club used to be. I seriously do think the club needs fans, rules changes, more car acceptance, and rules adjustments or the Club will soon be old news in a decade or two. I'll probably be at the next Labor Day race, hopefully racing with a better car than I have now. I missed this one just because I was still getting settled in at school.

Steven

[Simon T.]

To be spectator friendly, you would need to:

Make it a one-day event (qualifying in the morning, racing after lunch)

Only have 1 class per race group (multi-class racing is confusing to most fans)

Have at least 20 cars per race (none of this 1 & 2 cars in a class stuff)

Make the races no more than 30 minutes long (that way they won't get too boring even if it's a run away)

Run 6 race groups (3 1/2 hours or so for all of the races)

Charge $25-$30 with paddock access so people can see the cars up close (people like that!!)

Run shuttles from corner to corner or grandstand to grandstand so fans can see the whole track easily.

Now on to peace in the Middle East

Bob Clifton
#85 ITB Dodge Daytona

I don't see a major problem with any of that really.

It already costs $25 or so to spectate a regional at Road Atlanta. lol

[spawpoet]

Related to this discussion, what is the reason/difference we have spectator and non-spectator events in SCCA? I'd assume insurance purposes, but I'm just curious. I know down here non-spectator events are pretty much the norm, and it can be a bit of a hassle to invite the whole family out, when we are only allowed 3 crew members for a weekend.

[rsportvolvo]

TV kills attendance to events, regardless of the type of event. Even more so now with HD TV and excellent sound. Most folks can sit in the comfort of their living room and get a better view. With that in mind what's the incentive for folks to get out of the house and actually watch something in person?

[mtownneon]

Related to this discussion, what is the reason/difference we have spectator and non-spectator events in SCCA? I'd assume insurance purposes, but I'm just curious. I know down here non-spectator events are pretty much the norm, and it can be a bit of a hassle to invite the whole family out, when we are only allowed 3 crew members for a weekend.

There is none any longer. The reasoning used to be SCCA's old insurance carrier used to have a surcharge for spectator events but the current carrier has no such provision, all Club Races are considered "spectator events".

[gran racing]

Attendance for some of the Pro events at Lime Rock have seen the greatest number of people coming the past couple of years since quite a while ago. Not so sure I agree with that blanket statement.

[Simon T.]

TV kills attendance to events, regardless of the type of event. Even more so now with HD TV and excellent sound. Most folks can sit in the comfort of their living room and get a better view. With that in mind what's the incentive for folks to get out of the house and actually watch something in person?

This is 100% NOT true in any way.

Come to Petit this year and see what TV does for attendance. lol If anything, it makes it even more popular to GO to when an event comes close to you.

[StephF]

Related to this discussion, what is the reason/difference we have spectator and non-spectator events in SCCA? I'd assume insurance purposes, but I'm just curious. I know down here non-spectator events are pretty much the norm, and it can be a bit of a hassle to invite the whole family out, when we are only allowed 3 crew members for a weekend.

I worked for Lime Rock park for a number of years. In CT, you had to have an additional insurance policy to cover spectators. I don't remember how much it was, but I do recall it was pricey.
And, you then had to put gate guards in place as well. You have to limit access at an event because the spectators aren't covered under club insurance.
A typical event payroll for a 4 day event (majors) was usually around $100,000 or so. For a one day regional, it was still probably in the 20's easily enough. Especially if you had camping going on.
So in order to have spectators, on top of the track rental fees, you would have to allow probably another $30,000.
In the 90's, we charged 12/head at a regional race. We maybe got as many as 1500 folks in, more when we did the boy scout weekend. So that was what, $18,000 IF they all were paid admissions (which they never were, there's always comps in there).

Long story short, it's the age old problem. Not well known enough to be enough of a draw on it's own, which means not enough spectators, not enough gate fees, all of it leading to more expense. So unless the track decides to open it up to spectators, we are left with crew sign in spots. And even in a track does allow them in (like NHMS) it's expensive ($25/per)
Best bet is to troll for open crew spots when inviting the family out, or even better, have some of them sign in to work too.