Following the safety car

[Dave Gomberg]

If there's time to coordinate this, then there's time to toss a BFA...putting workers on the track that way is pointless and dangerous.

GA

Actually, there are multiple reasons not to do a BFA. First, the reason for taking the field through the pits is to allow cleanup of the area of the track between pit in and pit out. This may require a tow vehicle to briefly block the track; once done, the race may be able to continue on the next lap. Second, a BFA requires resetting the running order to the last completely scored lap. This takes time to do because T&S has to create the restart order, convey it to the pit marshals, re-order cars, give a restart signal and do a pace lap before racing can resume. Doing the cut-through via the pit lane is much simpler.

As for danger to the workers, if the safety car enters the pits slowly, the cars following will be going slowly as well. There is no more danger to the worker directing cars into the pits than a worker at an incident during a full course yellow pointing cars to the side of the track away from the incident. Note that I said track side, not from the middle of the track.

Dave

[Greg Amy]

That makes sense, Dave; someone else offered that possibility to me via PM as well. However, given that is likely a track-specific/regional thing (the PM'er offered as an example a wreck on the front straight at Road America) then that should be covered in the supplementary regulations (and, in further defense of the students from last weekend, such an incident would probably have been obvious to the drivers prior to the pace car pulling out, whereas there was no way it could be in the school.)

Bottom line in my mind, there is no described case in the GCR/Supps where a driver should expect or be prepared to follow the pace car through the pits, so assuming and expecting drivers to "get it" without prior notification of the possibility is very dangerous. I suggest that if nothing else, the above posts - from very experience drivers - illustrates this point decisively.

Put it in the GCR and/or the Supps if you wish to use this procedure, but expect significant confusion, a BFA, resetting the running order to the last completely scored lap, conveying it to the pit marshals, and giving a restart signal to do a pace lap when a pace car operator neglects to turn off the lights on a regular restart...

GA

[Racerlinn]

I don't have a GCR at hand, but.....
If the pace car has the field already in tow, and there is track blockage (for EV), then I would fully expect a red flag to be used.

[spawpoet]

I don't have a GCR at hand, but.....
If the pace car has the field already in tow, and there is track blockage (for EV), then I would fully expect a red flag to be used.

This brings up another good point as to why to not use the double yellow/drive down pit lane process. What if the pace car DOESN'T have the entire field in tow and you try to drive around a blockage via pitlane??? The cars that the pace car hasn't picked up WILL stay out as they would have nobody to follow into the pits. That's another reason to simply use a bfa or red flag depending on conditions.

Well now, I don't quite feel so stoopid for staying out on track in the school.

[Racerlinn]

Oops - except after a red flag - you must the return to the pits. That's not the solution....

[erlrich]

I agree with Dave that a BFA is probably not the way to go in a situation where you only want to detour through the pits. I also agree with Steve however, in that I would expect either a BFA or a red flag if there were sufficient track blockage to warrant such a detour.

I can also see how, if this were to occur anywhere else on the track - e.g. the pace car were to use a cut-over road to avoid a clean up zone (as could possibly happen if there were a major problem at T1 at Summit) - that drivers wouldn't hesitate to follow the pace car; it's just the whole pit road aspect that throws wrench into the works. In either case I would think a worker directing traffic would be the optimal solution. As Dave noted, we (flaggers/ev workers) are often out there directing traffic for on-track incidents, why not in this case?

[snook]

I was also at the drivers school as a driver, I'm also a steward. At one of the drivers meeting prior to the afternoon sessions Jack, pace car driver, mentioned that one should follow the pace car when the lights are on. The next session out we went FCY and he picked me up and circulated for one lap then went into the pits with most if not all of the field of the field in tow, this ended the session. In CFR the tracks we run have a couple of configurations that will allow cars to circulate while clean-up is being done.
While it does not specifically address the issue if thew safety car goes down pit lane and the field does not then the field would have passed the safety car, see 6.2.2. While it is not explicitly stated I believe that the SOMs would use that as the basis for a ruling.

[Dave Gomberg]

That makes sense, Dave; someone else offered that possibility to me via PM as well. However, given that is likely a track-specific/regional thing (the PM'er offered as an example a wreck on the front straight at Road America)

RA is hardly the only track where this can happen. Off the top of my head: Watkins Glen, Pocono (clockwise), Thunderbolt, Lightning, Summit Point, Mosport, Beaverun, Nelson Ledges, VIR, Mid-Ohio, Firebird, Phoenix, Thunderhill, Laguna Seca, Portland, Pacific Raceway. Its harder to think of places that it couldn't apply.

then that should be covered in the supplementary regulations

I still don't see how that helps - and the instance when the pace car doesn't shut down the lights on a normal end to a FCY, makes things worse.[/QUOTE]

(and, in further defense of the students from last weekend, such an incident would probably have been obvious to the drivers prior to the pace car pulling out, whereas there was no way it could be in the school.)

Bottom line in my mind, there is no described case in the GCR/Supps where a driver should expect or be prepared to follow the pace car through the pits, so assuming and expecting drivers to "get it" without prior notification of the possibility is very dangerous. I suggest that if nothing else, the above posts - from very experience drivers - illustrates this point decisively.

I agree that you can't expect drivers to divine intent. That's why it can only work with the appropriate signals from the safety car and workers.

Dave

[benspeed]

Funny story - I was at a PDA performance driving event at Pocono about 12 years ago. The fog was rolling in major and it looked like the event was going to be cancelled. The organizers asked everybody to saddle up to get a run in. We followed the pace car around as the fog blew in thick.

We were running the North Course and the pace car, with lights flashing proceeded to drive off the track at the end of the straightaway, over the grass, get lost and stop. Visibility was zero. Of course we all followed the pace car and most of the run group was parked on the grass.

The pace car did a U turn-found the track surface and we crawled back to the pits. Everybody exited and were sorta like "WTF" was that goofball doing.

Get this, we were all told that since we turned a wheel we couldn't get our money back but we would get a partial credit towards the next event......that was the last time I ran with that organization!

[EV]

If there's time to coordinate this, then there's time to toss a BFA...putting workers on the track that way is pointless and dangerous.

GA

Playing on both sides, I would like to comment on this.

Working Emergency Services, we have had instances where we needed to block a large part or the entire track to clean up a mess. We have directed cars under a safety car through the pit lane, and through a cut over road so speed things along, there is nothing wrong with doing this.

Regarding your comment "putting workers on the track that way is pointless and dangerous." Are you suggesting that all course clean up require a BFA (ala Watkins Glen)? At Summit Point, we do hot pulls, which of course require us to be on track. Dangerous maybe, but not pointless, many will disagree with that. If I can trust a driver to not hit me when I am doing a hot pull, I hope I can trust him to avoid me pointing him through the PITS behind the safety car during a FCY

As a driver, I would rather be doing laps under FCYthan get a BFA. At least under FCY, I am moving and not just sitting there cooking in a hot race car.

[Greg Amy]

Regarding your comment "putting workers on the track that way is pointless and dangerous." Are you suggesting that all course clean up require a BFA (ala Watkins Glen)?

Of course not. The original poster did not clarify that this was a procedure the Chief Steward was using to divert traffic flow through the pit lane to bypass an incident on the front straight, as Dave and a PM'er clarified. What that implied to me in subsequent replies was that corner workers are being used to block the track in lieu of a BFA to get cars into the pit lane and stopped.

As I noted to the PM'er:

I agree that drivers should (usually do) maintain situational awareness [and watch the track for corner worker directives for traffic flow], but I counter that anything that is a regional or an expected deviation from standard practice should be documented in advance. It's one thing to teach your local guys in their schools about what you do, but all regs and supps should be written with the expectation that some guy with a ink-fresh NASA license/Novice Permit is going to enter your event.

But let's place the debate in perspective of the original poster: it's one thing to maintain situational awareness behind the pace car, follow the directions of furiously waving workers on the track pointing you into pit lane, and following the pace car through the pits; yet it's a wholly different situation where the track is visually clear of debris and workers, is double-yellow all around, and the pace car simply pulls into pit lane with the lights still on and without its driver and/or observer making any hand signals. In the former situation I know I'd follow the pace car; in the latter situation I simply would not (and neither would, I suspect, any other experienced driver).

The Stewards tried to trick the students in the school without any supporting regulation or advance notice [nor with any common-sense reason for following the pace car into pit lane]; in my opinion they were wrong. And in the process they've sown the seeds of doubt, and potentially dangerous confusion for those drivers and for anyone else in the future.

GA

[spawpoet]

The Stewards tried to trick the students in the school without any supporting regulation or advance notice [nor with any common-sense reason for following the pace car into pit lane]; in my opinion they were wrong. And in the process they've sown the seeds of doubt, and potentially dangerous confusion for those drivers and for anyone else in the future.

GA

Greg, that's the whole reason I brought the issue up. Should this be in the GCR?? Does the SCCA (us) want us to follow the safety car at all times when it's lights are on or not??

[Racerlinn]

Working Emergency Services, we have had instances where we needed to block a large part or the entire track to clean up a mess. We have directed cars under a safety car through the pit lane, and through a cut over road so speed things along, there is nothing wrong with doing this.

DING! We have a winner here with Bill I think. If you expect me to follow a pace car with lights on off the racing surface, there had better be a corner worker there giving me a point - and I will give him/her a happy wave and thank you. I've been on the racing surface as a worker and done this myself. Now I know there is the issue of a straggler car running around at a greater speed than the field under yellow trying to catch up (probably the SOB that caused the whole shunt to begin with ), but the worker net obviously will be aware that they are re-routing traffic, so radio calls from upstream corners for fast movers would be obvious and expected. Much the same way corners call in the leaders to a checker flag or last car on course after a checker.

On edit - "surprising" a bunch of novices with this at a school with no pre-instruction is bullshit.

[raffaelli]

The first three guys posting here taught me well......

I would have stayed out since no standing black.

[JohnW8]

Slightly off topic but at the Nashville SARRC last year the entire wings and things group was bunching up behind the pace car and when he shut off the lights and headed down pit lane the entire field followed. Green flag was waving and everycar drove down pit lane.

[Mazmarc63]

Spoke to Mr Langlotz earlier. He likes(ed) this topic enough to pass it along to the people that could make a change. His feeling is to follow the pace car if the lights are on and agrees that there is an opportunity for disagreement (interpertation) based on the lack of wording about this in the GCR. He also reminded me that the pace car (driver) is under the direction of the Stewards and that *forgetting to turn the lights off* would be extremely rare. I cannot recall, in 16 years of racing having ever seen this happen.

Having said that, here is a synopsis, in part, of what has led to this topic. The names have been changed to protect the guilty.

May 2009, Daytona ECR. We always have two pace laps. One around the track, one through pit lane at 40 mph to check speed. IM on the pole, Graffy on the outside, ME (Marc Dana) 3rd. Off the grid directly on to the front stretch. Pace car starts moving, lights on. (I seem to remember that we were told the pace laps would be without the infield to save a few minutes, something that has been done before...I could be mistaken though) Pace car begins to bend down into road course T1, IM continues on the front stretch. I go back and forth in my head, pace car, IM, pace car, IM. I decide in like 0.3 seconds to follow IM. So does the rest of the field. IM paces us properly around the oval, the pace car(lights still on) picks us up at pit in and leads us on the second pace lap.

(Lights off) on the pace car, green flag, IM gets blacked flagged, wins anyway.

Next day, KK on the pole. Gets a reminder from the pace car driver to follow him. We(I'm way back for this race) start the first pace lap, all good. Pace car (lights on) heads down pit lane for the second lap, KK stays on the track. Pack follows. Pace car speeds down pit lane and collects us at NASCAR pit out. Paces us the rest of the lap. Green flag. KK gets black flagged. Doesn't win. Becomes famous a year later for his *problem* at the start of a street race. Wins anyway.

Daytona drivers school, 2010. Three groups. Deep into the weekend, first group has a full course caution. Field is collected behind the pace car (lights on) and led around. Pace car turns the lights off and enters pit lane. Pack continues around, takes the green flag and resumes racing. Next group (the one Chris is in), same scenario with the exception of the pace car NOT turning off the lights and enters pit lane. Group continues around under full course yellow and eventually BFA. Same scenerio for third group with the same result.

Now you know the rest of the story.

[JLawton]

It's all about communication (duh!) EVERYONE needs to understand what's going on and be clear about this. This obviously was not made clear before hand. SHould have been a red flag or black flag. It "almost" sounds like people were lazy in not wanting to reset the field when everyone came in and useing the reasoning of getting cars back out quickly...........sounds like that didn't work out either.......

[CFRRaceBoard]

I am the CFR pace car driver and have been for the past 15+ years. Let me take a few minutes to post CFR's reason behind this.

First off, I am under direct control of the Chief Steward and or his operaters. This issue is a pet peeve of one of our more well known stewards and his favorite saying is: "I don't care if the pace care pulls into the paddock and up to a coke machine. If his lights are on, you better follow him"
That is a direct quote he gave to a national driver at Sebring during one of our national events when that driver did not follow me thru the old hairpin to avoid an incident in the safety pin.

Now...........CFR has the luxury at it's 2 tracks where we have some options of alternate routes to possibly avoid an incident area to help expedite cleanup. This allows safety crews the luxury of cleaning up without having to watch their backs for the oncoming traffic. This is the purpose of the safety car, to control the field in an emergency. You, as drivers, don't have any idea of what the track conditions may be like ahead of you, which is why you should follow the SAFETY car. The lights are the only way for us (race control) to communicate with you.

OUR THEORY..... THE QUICKER THE CLEANUP, THE QUICKER WE RETURN TO GREEN FLAG RACING

When the leader doesn't follow, the rest of the pack doesn't either. Therefore, it takes longer to clean up the incident and the longer you ride around behind a pace car, or even worse, sit on pit lane for a BFA and probably have to be regridded.

As for pit lane, on both of our tracks, pit lane has been used for an alternate route to avoid incident areas. It is also used for the start of enduros, the purpose of which has been explained in the driver meetings before hand, yet you see the results. Need I say more?

As for the GCR. You all are correct. The GCR is very vague when it comes to anything about the use of pace/safety cars. I sent a request to the CRB several years ago requesting a clarification on this matter citing the same reasons I have posted here and explaining it is in the reason of safety and safety alone. I received the usual response...................... It is adequate as written, thank you for your input. (Not exact wording, but I'm sure you know what I mean)

Due to some of the incidents that I have encountered over the past several months, I have had some concern and discussed with the Asst. Race Board chairman the possibility of putting into our supps as well as speaking at the drivers meeting (which I did this past weekend).

So I guess as far as CFR goes expect to see it in the supps. (we know how you all read them so well).

Maybe Robin can be of more assistance with the CRB on this issue as I had no help at the time I presented it to the CRB.

Jack Ragaglia
Central Florida Region
Pace Car Chief

[StephenB]

First off, I am under direct control of the Chief Steward and or his operaters. This issue is a pet peeve of one of our more well known stewards and his favorite saying is: "I don't care if the pace care pulls into the paddock and up to a coke machine. If his lights are on, you better follow him"
That is a direct quote he gave to a national driver at Sebring during one of our national events when that driver did not follow me thru the old hairpin to avoid an incident in the safety pin.

Well at least we now know the problem.... pet peeves should never create a policy... I have a saying for people like that as well. : )

In NER we use an alternate process for starts only and it is clearly spelled out in the supps.

I think the current policy should remain and if you have an exception to the norm based on a tracks unique opportunity then it should simply be clearly explained
in the supps.

Stephen

[Andy Bettencourt]

What situation would cause the pace car to 'lead' the group into the pits without the corner workers being able to put up a black flag?

Unless it's spelled out in the supps that the PC is the end-all be-all, I will stick with the flaggers. The GCR tells me when I have to leave the track...and it's a black flag...usually followed by a double yellow, sometimes a red.

Supps are king.