Big Picture of IT - Share Your Opinions

[mom'sZ]

Come on guys... quit trying to reinvent the wheel, we got a pretty good thing going. Let's get a letter writing campaign going, get Kirk reinstated, get the codified process implemented, run all the cars through over the winter and GO RACING!!!

[lateapex911]

Come on guys... quit trying to reinvent the wheel, we got a pretty good thing going. Let's get a letter writing campaign going, get Kirk reinstated, get the codified process implemented, run all the cars through over the winter and GO RACING!!!

Kirk resigned knowing, I think, that most of us on the ITAC would be very disappointed. If you can talk him into coming back, well, that's more than fine with me...

As for the rest of the stuff, well, we're working on it. Not sue how much we'll be able to accomplish, but that's all under discussion.

[callard]

I like the dyno idea for non-ecu cars but Jake speaks the truth. My Benz has six different ignition maps with resultant loss of HP while the mixture remains optimal.

Still, I'd be willing to pay an extra $10 per entry to have the mobile dyno come to the track and run the top three in impound. Data points for the process....
Chuck

[JeffYoung]

I appreciate the thoughts on the SIR and dynos at the track, but to this ITAC member (my opinion only) they are based on an assumption that I don't think we want in "IT Land" -- and that is that there is some magic way to get all cars 100% equal.

Going down that path in IT was a total nightmare on the SIR, as it was not as easy as slap it on and presto, the E36 is now equal to RX7s and 240zs. It required a ton of work to even get the car to run with an SIR, and then a ton of time and money to tune it to make power.

That's a single example, but I think it is a critical one to remember. Due the many, many different attribute and varieties of cars in IT, there just is no simple easy way to balance them all equally.

Get'em close and let'em race.

[mom'sZ]

I appreciate the thoughts on the SIR and dynos at the track... as it was not as easy as slap it on and presto.... Due the many, many different attribute and varieties of cars in IT, there just is no simple easy way to balance them all equally.

Great point Jeff! Even if there was a way to equalize engine horsepower, that would not make all IT cars equal. Differences in suspension design, gearing and brakes (just the things accounted for presently when setting wieght) would make different cars faster or slower. Guess what folks... we'd still need some type of formula!

[ericblois]

just another thing on trying to get all cars having the same hp to wt ratio with SIR's. if the characteristics of the motors are completely different but the hp numbers are close or the same with the SIR which motor did the SIR hurt more? the high revving motor which needs lots or air to move in and out or the slow revving motor which depends more on its tq numbers. just food for thought

[frnkhous]

I appreciate the thoughts on the SIR and dynos at the track, but to this ITAC member (my opinion only) they are based on an assumption that I don't think we want in "IT Land" -- and that is that there is some magic way to get all cars 100% equal.

Going down that path in IT was a total nightmare on the SIR, as it was not as easy as slap it on and presto, the E36 is now equal to RX7s and 240zs. It required a ton of work to even get the car to run with an SIR, and then a ton of time and money to tune it to make power.

That's a single example, but I think it is a critical one to remember. Due the many, many different attribute and varieties of cars in IT, there just is no simple easy way to balance them all equally.

Get'em close and let'em race.

While I totally agree that you could/can fudge dyno numbers, I'd be ok with the idea that maybe at IT fest where I know a portable dyno is nearby(or the arrc) it could be worked out for 10-15 dollar add on to the entry getting them to come down and dyno the top x number of finnishers. Pull them immediately to the side in pit lane, follow them straight to the dyno before they go to tech. I don't think this should be common practice, and it would be better at the arrc where the winners would also be torn down, but I think It would fill in some anwers as to what power multipliers should be on cars believed to be legal. Don't tell people how many cars your gonna pull ahead of time. Yeah you could have somebody who had everything rigged to be able to switch, but depending on ecu's etc. it isn't necessarily that easy to do if you are immediately impounded. You'd have to have it rigged up ahead of time inside the car. However, I don't know that I think it is feasible to dyno every car, and I certainly wouldn't wanna make assumptions on power without some Idea of the cars legality. You definetly can still get around it if you want. This approach would give you evidence to present to the CRB should something like the audi come up again. you could say, heres the dyno information and it only made 1.25 for a power adder. The qualifying must have been good driving/bumpdrafting. If the standard multiplier was too low you'd have all the information you needed to justify adjusting the power multiplier.

All that said I really don't know that it is necessary. My personal opinion is that for the most part if overdogs exist and they show up too big races eventually somebody will build it and submit dyno sheets and then you'll have both the performances to trigger looking into it and the information to back up changing the power multiplier. IT isn't broken right now, although the idea of honest to goodness comp adjustments makes me think the chess match may begin soon. How much do you build, and how much do you show becomes the question?

[JeffYoung]

Good points.

I'll add that for whatever reason, we have never failed to get dyno plots from overdogs...E36, rX7, Z car, Integra, Miata, CRX, 325e, Golf, etc. In practice, despite what I agree are serious concerns, the system seems to work.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Good points.

I'll add that for whatever reason, we have never failed to get dyno plots from overdogs...E36, rX7, Z car, Integra, Miata, CRX, 325e, Golf, etc. In practice, despite what I agree are serious concerns, the system seems to work.

Well Jeff be careful now because some of those dyno plots are engine builders that are using them to sell more engines and *may* be inflated.

[JeffYoung]

Or from people submitting sheets with underreported figures trying to game the system.

It's not a precise science, but I think the ITAC collectively does a pretty good job as a group in reviewing dyno data in a critical fashion. With the number of us on the committee, and the differing perspectives we bring, there are a fair number of individual checks and balances that seem to prevent drastic mistakes.

But we are constantly learning. For example, the perception a few years back was that a Dynapak always read lower than a Jet. That's not the case, and we have educated ourselves (or I have, the others may have already known this) on these points.

[bamfp]

I would in no way even think of running in IT if I had to run an SIR. Go over to the GT board and see what goes on with an SIR. It is not as simple as bolting one in.

Blake Meredith

[gran racing]

Can you imagine all the new people run away with just the mention of a SIR? I'd shake my head and consider my options.