Is $350 for a single day regional a record?

[Ed Funk]

Problem is that alot of guys don't want to take a day off to qualify. If your self- employed like me no work, no pay. So in reality for some it makes the entry fee even more expensive.

R

Yeah, I understand as I'm self employed also. I work 6 days a week year round, so that I can afford to take the occasional vacation and/or race weekend.

[dickita15]

?Qual Fri. am for Sat am race. Qual Fri. pm for Sat pm race? Seems that I remember something like that from the days when we discovered that tires made from rubber were faster?

Mohawk Hudson Region tried this format just a few years ago. Solid innovative idea but the internet boards did not believe they could pull it off, that the schedule was impossible and that peoples afternoon races would get cut short. Entries were terrible. Ironically because of the low car count Mo Hud combined race groups and everyone got a ton of track time, but the region took a bath.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Mohawk Hudson Region tried this format just a few years ago. Solid innovative idea but the internet boards did not believe they could pull it off, that the schedule was impossible and that peoples afternoon races would get cut short. Entries were terrible. Ironically because of the low car count Mo Hud combined race groups and everyone got a ton of track time, but the region took a bath.

Actually Dick, IIRC, low car counts that weekend were more due to it being one of THREE back-to-back-to-back doubles. Pocono, then LRP, then NHMS.

We can only handle so much. Pocono paid better points, NHMS has better value. LRP is the first one off the schedule for most. Not me, but most.

[ner88]

So, here is the question" Is NARRC the problem?"
Some facts as I understand them:
Made up of 4 regions, of which only one has a track(or two).
80% of all entries come from NER.
The intent was to encurrage competitors to compete at all regions' NARRC events.???
Take away the NJ events and you have NERRC(oh and Pocono but who care?)
Questions:
With all the issues we face is NARRC out lived it's purpose?
Who actually runs the series (right now)?
Should we create a new series that will address todays market place?

[Robert Zecca]

REGARDING MONTICELLO.

The track was never intended in design for actual racing so I do not ever believe we will be able to race there. It is only good for touring, pdx, etc......

I like what Doc Bro had to say in his thread regarding Pro IT. I hope people listen and learn from his words because Pro IT may go away next year if things do not change.

Bob Zecca

[StephenB]

So, here is the question" Is NARRC the problem?"
Some facts as I understand them:
Made up of 4 regions, of which only one has a track(or two).
80% of all entries come from NER.
The intent was to encurrage competitors to compete at all regions' NARRC events.???
Take away the NJ events and you have NERRC(oh and Pocono but who care?)
Questions:
With all the issues we face is NARRC out lived it's purpose?
Who actually runs the series (right now)?
Should we create a new series that will address todays market place?

YES

Create a Series that everyone can and wants to run in, Draw the crowds and have a series we can all enjoy and afford!! I would rather run a summer long "series" than 1 event here and there as it spreads the cost factor into a summer thing rather than a weekend thing! (Perception is everything to my wife!)

I think something like a "northern" north east series and a "southern" north east series would work AWESOME! Top 5 from each Series get Gaurenteed entry into the NARRC Championship at LRP and IF the entries don't fill up by a certain deadline than anyone else outside the top 5 in each class in each series can run first come first served until the run group is filled. I bet that would bring new meaning to the NARRC Championship like it had in the 80's and 90's
To me it seems as though this would help travel expenses and hopefully eliminate some weekends of the schedule by eliminating some of the tracks we currently are running to successfully run in a series. I actually think this would work similar to how it works for the National guys/gals. We would just need to hype up the NARRC Championship event at LRP and make it a valid goal for our peers!

Stephen

Edit: Maybe we should do some math and planning... utilizing past participation numbers and make it a % of the total class rather than just top 5. Some run groups have so many classes that maybe the top 5 is to many cars and other run groups like SRF and SM should get more than 5 due to the higher attendence...

[Andy Bettencourt]

So, here is the question" Is NARRC the problem?"
Some facts as I understand them:
Made up of 4 regions, of which only one has a track(or two).
80% of all entries come from NER.
The intent was to encurrage competitors to compete at all regions' NARRC events.???
Take away the NJ events and you have NERRC(oh and Pocono but who care?)
Questions:
With all the issues we face is NARRC out lived it's purpose?
Who actually runs the series (right now)?
Should we create a new series that will address todays market place?

NARRC isn't the problem. NERRC isn't the problem. NYSRRC isn't the problem. The problem is regions holding too many events at a track that drivers don't see enough value in - thereby creating a losing proposition at 3 of the 4 events there per year.

If the events at WGI, NJMP and NHMS all make money at resonable entry fees, they stand on there own.

[ner88]

So if NY dosen't hold the NARRCoff (Their only NARRC event), MOHUD has no regionals and NNJ can't afford to lose again at LRP, there won't be too many events at LRP, seems to solve that problem!
NARRC becomes a NNJ/NER series? HOw many people will travel between NJMP and NHMS? FACT: NOT Many!

[Andy Bettencourt]

So if NY dosen't hold the NARRCoff (Their only NARRC event), MOHUD has no regionals and NNJ can't afford to lose again at LRP, there won't be too many events at LRP, seems to solve that problem!
NARRC becomes a NNJ/NER series? HOw many people will travel between NJMP and NHMS? FACT: NOT Many!

Like I have said Jerry, NER should hold their school/single and the NARRC Runoffs. It was nice to share when there was enough demand to need to share. Now there is not.

NARRC needs an overhaul too but that is a WHOLE 'nother story. It should be run by ANYBODY other than the execs from Regions. Let it, like Pro IT, stand or fall on it's own. I believe those who race for the NARRC Championship want to do so at a variety of tracks. A true Divisional series. NHMS, LRP, WGI, NJMP, Pocono, etc.

[ner88]

Andy
I agree, let's all work together and create a series that we can sell to each region/track, call it NARRC or whatever. What we have now is broke and we need to fix it.

[StephenB]

I would agree with you Andy that some ok Several people (but not all) want to race at a variaty of tracks which is one thing that makes The NARRC successfull. I referenced "I actually think this would work similar to how it works for the National guys/gals" and a great adder that you bring up is being able to run at other tracks so maybe we should steal the way the National division runs the points to go to the runnoffs. They allow "out of Region points" to factor into the equation but still limit the number of events. This would allow someone like me that can't afford to travel to run in the "Northern" North East Series and fight for a series championship and still allow someone like yourself to run at several tracks. Then we both can get a chance in the NARRC Runnoffs And be crowned the NARRC Champion! Not sure exactly how the National Guys/Gals run it but if we can copy some of those ideas to create 2 neat series that feed of eachother we may drive some of us to run in even 1 more event per year (without all the travel) then maybe someone like me could be the NARRC Runnoffs champion!

I think a big part of the problem for me anyway is the NARRC series is to large and I cannot afford it from both a time and $$ standpoint so I have chosen to run a different series alltogether. In the end it may be close to the same cost in travel and entry value per track time but I am saving a ton on Maintance and vacation time.

Stephen

[gran racing]

Of all the people that race in various events, how many are actually following one of these series?

Just curious because I really don't care which region is hosting a race, what series it maybe part of - I care about the quality of the event. For example, IT Fest - which might be THE best organized event and thought out event I've attended (both years). ARRC. Summit's Labor Day Double. Runoffs at LRP.

As far as regions having to purchase a Friday & Sat event - sell it to a HPDE club. At $345 per entry, SCDA is sold out for the upcoming event at Lime Rock. Sell it to a PCA region. We essentially have no PDX program in the N.E. Maybe sell all but one session and have that as a "SCCA Club Racing Grooming Group".

[Greg Amy]

NARRC isn't the problem. NERRC isn't the problem. NYSRRC isn't the problem. The problem is regions holding too many events at a track that drivers don't see enough value in - thereby creating a losing proposition at 3 of the 4 events there per year.

This can't be stressed enough.

Even though we've tried...

[Andy Bettencourt]

As far as regions having to purchase a Friday & Sat event - sell it to a HPDE club. At $345 per entry, SCDA is sold out for the upcoming event at Lime Rock. Sell it to a PCA region. We essentially have no PDX program in the N.E. Maybe sell all but one session and have that as a "SCCA Club Racing Grooming Group".

They can't afford it Dave. The rent for an 89dB day is significantly lower than the 103dB days of which there are a limited quantity of that SCCA requires to run our equipment.

[gran racing]

Just curious...
Any idea what they pay for an 89 DB day?
How much do we pay for a single Sat only event?

[lateapex911]

We can't get a single Sat, so the rent if you could get it might be 27K or so....

[jjjanos]

They can't afford it Dave. The rent for an 89dB day is significantly lower than the 103dB days of which there are a limited quantity of that SCCA requires to run our equipment.

Huh?

I believe that Dave was suggesting subletting the facility for part/all of the time on a Friday to a group that wants to hold a PDX.

I'm fairly certain that there are procedures for such an arrangement, or at least there were, and, IIRC, the only requirement was that the other sanctioning body carry an insurance policy identical or greater than the SCCA policy. That would be how SCCA ProRacing (a separate sanctioning body) can run with Club Racing Events.

It seems that you have already determined the only workable solution - drop LRP dates - and are not looking for alternate solutions. None-the-less, the idea of a PDX is workable.

It all boils down to the elasticity of demand with respect to track time and entry fees and how much PDX revenue you can get. Losing track time on Friday will hurt entries, PDX-revenue lowers the fee/car needed to cover costs and that raises entries. Making it a one-day event sounds like it will increase entries.

It's all a stopgap measure any way. LRP hasn't realized it's no longer the only game in town and clubs soon will realize that they can get more track time, with less hassle and lower entry fees at the new facilities. What they lack in LRP's history, they compensate with better value. Doubtful LRP will be able to keep charging company store prices now that the chain stores have opened.

If they don't adjust their pricing because of the increase in supply, clubs will simply cut back because the demand won't be from their members.

[Andy Bettencourt]

JJJ,

I am not sure you understand. Many HPDE clubs run at LRP. They do so at an 89dB limit. The rent for those days is roughly half of what it is per day of an SCCA weekend. So while Dave's idea has merit, it is not financially feasable for these clubs to rent at that rate. We just had a one day event at LRP that lost NNJR money...so it's not so much one day that makes it work there.

LRP doesn't have to realize anything - YET. They have a product and we keep paying...that is the crux of this discussion. If the events made money and were fully sunscribed at $800 a day for a single, I wouldn't be complaining...to each his own. But the Regions beg for entries and support every year for fer they will lose money - again...I am just suggesting that they lower the amount of events there so they can increase supply and make the balance sheet actually balance.

[Dave Zaslow]

The problem with LRP is not NARRC, NERRC, NYSRRC, NJMS, or any other acronymic alphabet scramble one wants to throw at this. LRP is the most expensive place to put on a race because the track rental fee for unmuffled events is exceptionally large and all ancillary services come from the track as well. LRP has limited track hours and should be run as a restricted regional for the 10 top participating classes (and what will fit running with them in 6 run groups). I think the car counts would be the same or better.

Demand by racers is elastic. Supply for races is both elastic and inelastic in that only so many dates at tracks are available and the organizations puting on a race want to have those dates available in good times and bad. In a year such as this the demand is down, but the supply is actually up due to the base supply of "historical" dates being supplemented by Pro-IT and the recently gained ability to run IT cars in national classes.
It does not make sense from an economics view, but it may from a region's emotional view - "We've always done this event on this date and we'll do it forever".

Silly.

The regions see having the NARRC imprimateur as bringing more entries, so they designate most or all of their races as being part of the NARRC series. Then they still run other races that compete for the time/money/interest of their racing population.

For the any economy there needs to be just enough races to meet the racers demand AND leave the regions financially sound. Regions should join to co-host events so the risk is spread amongst them. Next year, or the year after, things will be different. Better or worse, who knows; but they will be different. If the tracks (all of them) take only a short term view, it will come back to them eventually.

The contracts re already signed for this year. Sanctions have been applied for. Flexibility has been lost. Suck it up and go forward being somewhat wiser. Look to give the most value to your customers and they will stick with you.

I will enter the LRP 6/20 race and pay for the too expensive motel room as well. I will go to WGI because it is a pleasure to race there. I will try to get to NJMP because I haven't been there. I won't go to NHMS because I have been there. I will make it to LRP for the NARRC-offs and will not let anyone else use my car (but I reserve my right to borrow Nat W's).

DZ

While NARRC is not really the problem we are having I'll stick my two cents in here.

In the NARRC series only about 30% of entrants (not entries) ran 4 or more NARRC races (2007 data).

NARRC needs to define a more limited number of races (no more than two) at each of the tracks that the drivers are interested in running. At the moment this is NHMS, NJMP (T and L), WGI, POC, and LRP. The NARRC drivers have previously expressed their opinion and wanted the diversity of tracks. I personaly would like to see no more than 10 races and 8 counted. No bonuses, no incentives.

[Greg Amy]

LRP hasn't realized it's no longer the only game in town and clubs soon will realize that they can get more track time, with less hassle and lower entry fees at the new facilities. What they lack in LRP's history, they compensate with better value. Doubtful LRP will be able to keep charging company store prices now that the chain stores have opened.

You're not a local, so it's understandable how/why you would underestimate the draw of this place for HPDE/track time events. This place holds a "panache" to non-racers that really cannot be overstated. The opportunity for some of these groups to be "able" to drive LRP is a terrific draw, to both "regular" guys in street cars and rich guys in Ferraris and Porches, and is the primary reason why Skip has been able to sell memberships to his LRP Club at a rate far exceeding my - and many others' - expections. As such, Skip can make a helluva lot of revenue, at significantly-reduced expense and risk, through these avenues.

But, "us racers", for the most part, don't have that much of a high regard for the track's history and reputation. To many of us, it's just another race track (though one much more convenient). And, there's a lot fewer racers than there are HPDE'rs. So, while the HPDE'rs will fill up four to five track registration events within hours, SCCA racers look upon three opportunities per year to race there as yet another choice to use discretionary time and money.

Further, are you aware that, by local ordinance, the track is only allowed a limited number of open-sound, a limited number of 103db, and a limited number of "competition" days (defined as wheel-to-wheel true racing, not testing, HPDE, or open passing)? So, by ordinance, he's only got "so" many days to sell to racing groups, and SCCA ain't the only one in town (e.g. Porsche Club, Ferrari Club, BMW club, NASA/PDA, etc). There's a lot more demand for competition time there than there are days available, so why can't he charge all he wants?

Finally, there ain't a whole lotta chain stores around; Watkins Glen is a good 5-6 hours from New York City, LRP is one; New Hampshire - no where near the draw as LRP - is over 4; Pocono - a place people stay away from in droves - is another 2. New Jersey is close to the City (2-3 hours?) and is good competition, but it ain't the saintly LRP.

Add to all of those factors the new LRP Club, which pulls many dates away from the market (so the members can drive around in their cars) and it's pretty obvious that this place will not be dropping its prices any time soon.

You're an economist, you understand what I'm saying. But, unless you spend time up here to really understand the psychological draw of this place, you can't understand why. No amount of formulas or calculations can explain it. Trust me when I tell you this place has a magnetic attraction to the gearhead that any track owner would kill for...

In the end, we (New England Region), with great foresight, chose to pursue a privately-owned club track as a solution. Once Palmer is open to our use, I suspect we'll quickly make LRP a one-event-a-year situation. Doing so will reinstate our "reverence" for that track (you don't know whatcha got until it's gone) and it will again draw a large number of racers, and make that one LRP a money-winner.

And Skip will sell those other two competition weekends to another group (or, convert them to HPDE or club weekends) without even blinking an eye.

GA