Teach me about ITR 325's

[Andy Bettencourt]

Agreed, but following the same logic would the RX-7 get twin piston calipers, trick 5th gear, rear wing and power steering delete?

No Rob, that logic doesn't fly at all. With the MT 325, we are talking about a CHASSIS difference from teh cars that are listed on the line.

The RX-7 had many different (both high and low production versions) that make up the ITS RX-7. The big brakes came on many versions, the rear wing on even more and the non PS cars were actually the lower end units. The 5th gear was indeed from the GTUs of which plenty were made in 1989 but just 100 in 1990.

Again, it's not about the bits and pieces that make up the perfect ITS RX-7 because they all have the same chassis. What would be more appropriate to compare would be if the Turbo models came with a reinforced XXX and ITS drivers were using that to justify.

After all, those cars are about a second a lap faster than any other car in ITS.

Maybe up hear in the NE, but not everywhere...

Like I said, we all know what is legal to do to an E36 to make it right. Repair, yes. Reinforcement, no....and it ain't any different for any other car in all of IT.

[JoshS]

I still say no one has answered my question. The deafening silence says to methat no one with these plates has any evidence to present in the event that they are protested.

Everyone has just repeated stuff they read on other forums (they came on with the option package, or BMW has stated that they were produced as a repair to this problem, or Turner says so ...) but no one has any DOCUMENTATION that proves any of it. Don't get me started on the topic of believing what the race part vendors tell you about parts legality. Turner explicitly states that metal brake caliper bushings are legal for SCCA racing. Yeah? Well, not for IT!

I'm a BMW guy and I can't find anything on this subframe mount issue. I'm not sure why Andy is willing to believe that people are "replacing per factory specs" without seeing a factory spec.

I guess I'm just a conservative rules reader. But based on what I know, I would NOT install those plates on my IT car, even as a reactive repair after a failure.

EDIT: one would expect such a document to be in the TIS, right alongside the instructions for repairing a failed shock tower on the 325i. That's a totally analogous situation. If this document isn't there, where would it be?

[Doc Bro]

metal brake caliper bushings are legal for SCCA racing. Yeah? Well, not for IT!

What part of 'bushings are free' am I misunderstanding?

R

[Greg Amy]

What part of 'bushings are free' am I misunderstanding?

The part about them being under the category rules for suspension...?

Of course, if we're agreeing that any bushing that suspends anything is free, let me know...'cause you ain't gonna like the results...just sayin'...

GA, who's really hoping our BMW friends are not replacing their rubber caliper bushings with anything non-rubber...

[Doc Bro]

The part about them being under the category rules for suspension...?

Of course, if we're agreeing that any bushing that suspends anything is free, let me know...'cause you ain't gonna like the results...just sayin'...

GA, who's really hoping our BMW friends are not replacing their rubber caliper bushings with anything non-rubber...

Mine are stock, but I thought this went back and forth several years ago...with the end interpretation being bushings are free. I could be mistaken. I thought it was around the whole spherical "bushings" and "air bushing" era.

From the GCR;
bushing- a sleeve or tubular insert, whose purpose is to reduce the dimension(s) of an existing hole. A protective liner that cushions noise, friction, or movement such as a rod end or spherical bearing.

The suspension section clearly states bushing material is unrestricted as we all know.

The brake section states that brake linings are unrestricted....what's the difference between a liner and a lining?:cool: Brake connectors are unrestricted. Isn't a connector something that "connects" the something to something else? As in the caliper to the car? Seeing how lining and connector aren't defined in the GCR I'm unsure.

I think this subject is pretty gray...as I stated before mine are stock so don't be a hater....just posing a counterpoint.

R

[JoshS]

Mine are stock, but I thought this went back and forth several years ago...with the end interpretation being bushings are free. I could be mistaken. I thought it was around the whole spherical "bushings" and "air bushing" era.

From the GCR;
bushing- a sleeve or tubular insert, whose purpose is to reduce the dimension(s) of an existing hole. A protective liner that cushions noise, friction, or movement such as a rod end or spherical bearing.

The suspension section clearly states bushing material is unrestricted as we all know.

The brake section states that brake linings are unrestricted....what's the difference between a liner and a lining?:cool: Brake connectors are unrestricted. Isn't a connector something that "connects" the something to something else? As in the caliper to the car? Seeing how lining and connector aren't defined in the GCR I'm unsure.

I think this subject is pretty gray...as I stated before mine are stock so don't be a hater....just posing a counterpoint.

R

I find that all to be a ridiculously tortured interpretation.

A brake lining is the actual brake pad/shoe material. The "connector" being referred to is the hydraulic connector. That entire paragraph is about hydraulics. Context matters.

Not even remotely gray in my opinion.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I find that all to be a ridiculously tortured interpretation.

A brake lining is the actual brake pad/shoe material. The "connector" being referred to is the hydraulic connector. That entire paragraph is about hydraulics. Context matters.

Not even remotely gray in my opinion.

+1.

[Greg Amy]

Not even remotely gray in my opinion.

But if it is, please do let me know ASAP.

GA

[Doc Bro]

I find that all to be a ridiculously tortured interpretation.

A brake lining is the actual brake pad/shoe material. The "connector" being referred to is the hydraulic connector. That entire paragraph is about hydraulics. Context matters.

Not even remotely gray in my opinion.

But Josh those are YOUR definitions not the GCR's, The GCR doesn't define these things so variability (creep) gets introduced.

SoI guess the ITAC guys get to decide what's rediculously tortured...
Let's go back to "air as a bushing" and truly talk about what's tortured.

R

[GKR_17]

I think this subject is pretty gray...

Ridiculous. Not even remotely legal, or gray.

[GKR_17]

Oh come on.. those bushings suspend the calipers right? Give me a break. Anyone remember when they tried to justify internal coatings because they were "lubricants"? That didn't fly either.

[Z3_GoCar]

Josh,

Something completly analouguos, that I know about. Does the TIS for the Z3 have the factory proceedure for fixing a cracked differential mount? I know that I've seen several where the dealer will weld a second mount over the first. However, it seems the dealer has to bring in an rep to tell them how to perform the repair, thus avoiding the documentation and resulting liability if something goes wrong with the repair. Maybe it's a similar kind of situation... non-documented dealer/factory repairs.

James

[JoshS]

Josh,

Something completly analouguos, that I know about. Does the TIS for the Z3 have the factory proceedure for fixing a cracked differential mount? I know that I've seen several where the dealer will weld a second mount over the first. However, it seems the dealer has to bring in an rep to tell them how to perform the repair, thus avoiding the documentation and resulting liability if something goes wrong with the repair. Maybe it's a similar kind of situation... non-documented dealer/factory repairs.

James

I've never seen any acknowledgement by BMW for the diff mount/trunk floor problem, just like I've never seen anything for the E36 problem.

Therefore, such a dealer-installed repair would not be legal in IT, even if a verbal agreement with a BMWNA employee allowed BMWNA to pay for the repair.

[Z3_GoCar]

I've never seen any acknowledgement by BMW for the diff mount/trunk floor problem, just like I've never seen anything for the E36 problem.

Therefore, such a dealer-installed repair would not be legal in IT, even if a verbal agreement with a BMWNA employee allowed BMWNA to pay for the repair.

Just because the GCR mandates that the manufactures provide XYZ (in this case it's a document stating dealer repair methods) to a racer doesn't mean that the manufacturer will. In this case of drastice chassis repairs, there is probably legal liability reasons for the absense of such a document along with proprietary reasons. Just because the document doesn't exist doesn't means it strictly illegal either.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Just because the document doesn't exist doesn't means it strictly illegal either.

Then how do you know how to perform the repair?

[Greg Amy]

Just because the document doesn't exist doesn't means it strictly illegal either.

Actually, James, per the explicit rules it means exactly that....



GA

[lateapex911]

Wow...never knew THIS was where the rules and regs soap opera went!

For the record, Air bushings. It is said that RX-7s (early cars like mine), when lowered will bind the rear axle and destroy U joints. That's because the stock upper trailing arm pulls the axle forward at teh top at that point in it's travel. The rules allow the addition of traction bars, and with a properly designed traction bar, one can do what you wouldn't normally think of: use really soft bushings as opposed to the typical hard replacements, in the upper trailing arms. This allows the axle to rise and fall without twisting forward, and removes the binding.

Now, I haven't crawled under anyone's RX-7 in a long long time, but rumour has it that not only are the bushings just not replaced at all, but the upper trailing arms are just left off certain cars. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me, but, at the front, my bet is all RX-7s are legal. Mine runs hard foam in the upper trailing arm bushing locations. (I can't imagine the racket air would create if used as a bushing!)

Air bushings? Silly boys!

[Andy Bettencourt]

The RX-7 had many different (both high and low production versions) that make up the ITS RX-7. The big brakes came on many versions, the rear wing on even more and the non PS cars were actually the lower end units. The 5th gear was indeed from the GTUs of which plenty were made in 1989 but just 100 in 1990.

It has been pointed out to me offline that I may have inferred that ITS RX-7 drivers were creating a model that didn't exist by cherry-picking the best stuff from different models. What I was trying to do for Rob was to show him that the items he listed for the most part, were not low production stuff and indeed available on all RX-7's.

The model that is being created is the 89-90 GTUs. The desirable part from this model is the 5th gear ratio (.76 instead of .71). And even at that number, it is worse than most everything in ITS.

[robits325is]

It has been pointed out to me offline that I may have inferred that ITS RX-7 drivers were creating a model that didn't exist by cherry-picking the best stuff from different models. What I was trying to do for Rob was to show him that the items he listed for the most part, were not low production stuff and indeed available on all RX-7's.

The model that is being created is the 89-90 GTUs. The desirable part from this model is the 5th gear ratio (.76 instead of .71). And even at that number, it is worse than most everything in ITS.

My opinion is when you can change so many pieces and create a parts room model that exceeds the model that was classified then there should be a re-evaluation. I think that some of these RX-7 models should be on an individual spec line just like the 92 325i should be on a different spec line from the 93-95 325i

[JeffYoung]

Rob, on the BMW, is that due to OBDI v. OBDII? Or is it some other fundamental differences between the two different groups of model years?

I'm just curious, didn't realize there were differences in the E36 run.

Thanks.

Jeff