2009: Kumho vs. Hankook vs. Hoosier vs. BFG... fight!

vtluu

vtluu

New member
Hi folks, old topic, new year. I'm pondering tire choices for my ITS Miata:
- Kumho V710 205/50-15
- Hankook Z214 C51 225/45-15
- Hoosier R6 225/45-15
- BFG R1 205/50-15

I can get a couple sets of Kumhos cheap from a team that has leftovers from the 25-Hour. They'll also work well for the occasional autocross if I so choose. At 18 lbs they're the lightest tire.

The Hoosiers are the stickiest and that ~9" tread width is unmatched, so I'd expect phenomenal grip, but as the shortest-lived tires costing about $200 more a set than any other, I'm willing to go without until my talent catches up.

AIM touts the Hankook as a miracle tire (sticky as Hoosiers, durable as Toyos). I've heard some people say the same about the BFG R1. I've seen very little actual data or even anecdotal evidence on either.

Hankook: 225-wide means more tread means more grip, but at 22 lbs apiece that's 4 lbs more unsprung weight per corner than the Kumhos, and the little bit of time I might drop with the extra grip I might sacrifice on the straights. My searches also found much grumbling about availability; is it still an issue?

BFG R1: the new kid on the block, and mostly an unknown quantity. Nothing to choose price-wise vs. the Kumhos or Hankooks.
 
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I only run the R6. Longevity is much improved over earlier versions. We get 10-12 good heat cycles out of them.
 
betamotorsports said:
Choose the tire with the best contingency program (the one where you're most likely to get some money or tires for free) and run those.
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Thanks John. I'm only running regional SCCA events and as near as I can tell, given the current economic climate and all, the amount of contingency money that can be had is about... zero.
 
You'd be surprised. We have a very good Hoosier contingency down here via Appalachian Tire. Not pushing Hoosiers on a noob, if I were you I'd go Toyos, but there are contingencies out there.
 
JohnRW said:
Basic rule of racing: The bestest fastest tire on earth is a free tire.
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Given the level of competition around here I'm not optimistic about my odds of winning any such things.

I've got 2 sets of Toyo RA1s but I'm looking to upgrade. I've got a set of Hankook C50s with 1.5 practice/test days on them so I guess those are better than the RA1s and "free".

I just ordered a new set of Kumho W710s for the 1-2 rain races we might have here in this region... I didn't switch from SM to IT to keep all my money in my wallet you know! :D
 
Tire truths:

Hoosiers: The defacto standard...fast, and now live a bit longer.

Hankooks: The challenger. (I set records at every track except one I ran at this year on kooks,), their life isn't well known, but the money is (was) good.

Toyos. slower, but last forever. The money tire if you can't win.

In the rain:

Dirt Stockers are the gold standard.
Close second, and better in the not torrential stuff because they won't chunk as soon: The new Hoosier molded radial rain.

All others a distant second


The higher unsprung weight of the Hoosiers is irrelevant compared to the grip in the final lap time analysis.
 
Yes, I am quite embarassed that I wasted my time looking on the SCCA and Kumho websites for information. I should have known better.

This is an interesting notion. I thought the whole point of contingency was to motivate us to buy your brand of tires. In order for that to be effective people need to know about the program.

Right now we have a contingency from Kumho that is not accessible from their kumhousa web page. Instead there is a secret motorsports blog site that is not linked from the corporate site and can only be found with a google search. Not one of the authorized dealers I looked at today has a single word about contingency, let alone a link to the secret site.

Hoosier Tire Midwest has a contingency but they won't tell you what it is unless you call. I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, but do you see my point? How hard would it be to post the payouts here and motivate people to buy your product?

Right now the secret Kumho program seems better than the secret Hoosier program. And I just got a Hooiser sweatshirt for Chirstmas...
 
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lateapex911 said:
Tire truths:

Hoosiers: The defacto standard...fast, and now live a bit longer.

Hankooks: The challenger. (I set records at every track except one I ran at this year on kooks,), their life isn't well known, but the money is (was) good.

Toyos. slower, but last forever. The money tire if you can't win.

In the rain:

Dirt Stockers are the gold standard.
Close second, and better in the not torrential stuff because they won't chunk as soon: The new Hoosier molded radial rain.

All others a distant second

The higher unsprung weight of the Hoosiers is irrelevant compared to the grip in the final lap time analysis.
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It sounds like you have a lot of experience. I have never run Hankooks, but I agree with your analysis relative to the Hoosiers (dry and wet) and the Toyo's. I was wondering if you (or anyone) have any experience on how the Kumho V710 would fit in with the Hoosier/Hankook/Toyo? I was also wondering if anyone had any experience with the new Kumho wet that looks to be competing with the Hoosier wet radial?
 
mc-integra111 said:
It sounds like you have a lot of experience. I have never run Hankooks, but I agree with your analysis relative to the Hoosiers (dry and wet) and the Toyo's. I was wondering if you (or anyone) have any experience on how the Kumho V710 would fit in with the Hoosier/Hankook/Toyo? I was also wondering if anyone had any experience with the new Kumho wet that looks to be competing with the Hoosier wet radial?
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I have zero experience with the kuhmo. Here's why:

They are slower than the Hoosier by all accounts.
They don't last as long as the Toyo, by most accounts.

So, they seem to be a compomise. And they offer(ed) decent contigency.

But, that's only if you win against decent fields. And where I race, they run on hoosiers. So, for me, the tire choice had to be quick enough to win on, and (if so, pay back some money. The second part is useless without the first.

So, the question always boils down to, how popular and competitive is it in your area? And, how is your budget?

If you NEED to keep it cheap, AND the competition is stout, (and you were new and really didn't have much realistic chance at winning), the answer was the Toyos.

If you COULD win on fast tires, and could use some money, then, (regional contingencies notwithstanding) the Hankooks were a good option.
The hoosiers have some payouts, but it's regionally dependent.
And if you care only about winning, you have two choices:
1-Test Hankooks and hoosiers back to back.
2- Just run hoosiers.


As far as contingencies, many companies make it hard to collect....not impossible, but they aren't looking to make it super easy. They get most of the press from offering the money, not from paying out. It's advertising for them.
 
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I have heard great things about the new BFG's that's what I am planning on trying first supposed to almost as fast as the Hoosiers and last longer.
 
The consensus is that the Hoosiers are faster. The problem with the consensus is that there isn't a great deal of experience on the Hankooks because it is often impossible to get them. I ran them on a CRX in ITB. When comparing sticker versus sticker, I was about 1.5 seconds off the fast laps set by the BMWs in the first MARRS at Summit Point.

Full disclosure: my car was too soft in the front and had an open-differential. In short, it was an ill-handling pig that couldn't put power down in twisty bits. I expect that the differential will be less now.

In the Smurf, I drove on scuffed Hoosiers and scuffed Kooks and couldn't tell the difference.

I went with the Hankooks because, for the last two years, I could get 4 Kooks for the price of 3 Hoosiers. I have yet to run out of heat cycles in the Kooks. I tend to flat spot them first. (Thus 4 for the price of 3 is real attractive to me.)
 
While you are talking tires.... Any tips for how much cold pressure Hoosiers like? Back in the old days (last time I ran), there was a huge difference between some of the tires as to pressures (BFG, Yoko, Hoosier bias ply etc).... (FWIW, I have a RWD IT car 2030lb w/o driver, struts up front, live axle rear).....
 
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